ALEPleateau3

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From: woods@ncia.net
Subject: [NIFL-FOBASICS:1216] RE: Plateaus for beginning ABE readers--2nd
Date: December 3, 2004 1:07:29 AM EST
To: nifl-fobasics@literacy.nifl.gov

Man, I'm with you, Chris. When I look at my adult early and non readers, most of them already have pretty good phonics skills. There have beena few students with really severe perceptual and memory problems that made it impossible for them to remember phonics and no amount of teaching phonics would change that. One of these fellows had me so perplexed that in desperation we tried using colored acetate overlays. To my surprise, blue made a marked improvement in his accuracy and speed. I can only surmise that he already had the decoding skills, but his perception was such that he was not able to use them.

Tom Woods

From: meyer_j@ccsdistrict.org
Subject: [NIFL-FOBASICS:1217] RE: Plateaus for beginning ABE readers--2nd
Date: December 3, 2004 8:51:17 AM EST
To: nifl-fobasics@literacy.nifl.gov

Chris Badger wrote:

Vocabulary, spelling, and reading are learned when adults see a need. But they are learned best when adults use learning as the means to a personal end. I have first, second and third grade readers who daily spend time "reading" books on history and science. but that should spur us as teachers to occasionally ignore phonics in favor of philosophy.

Chris, You are not alone in this. I agree wholeheartedly that learning (including vocabulary, spelling, and reading) is best in purposeful contexts. Reading research supports your use of science and history materials with low level readers. Chall's work points out the need to help beginning readers develop vocabulary and background knowledge. The hard part is finding or creating materials on a low enough reading level for students to actually be able to use them for reading instruction and not just gaining of vocabulary and background knowledge. And, you don't even need to give up phonics which is also important. Get a phonics scope and sequence, assess your students to see what they already know, and spend a little time each day teaching through the sequence. You can use words from the texts you are reading as a springboard into the phonics concept of the day.

Jane Meyer
Canton City Schools ABLE
Canton, Ohio
meyer_j@ccsdistrict.org

From: AWilder106@aol.com
Subject: [NIFL-FOBASICS:1218] RE: Plateaus for ABE readers--2nd/3rd+Big Ideas
Date: December 3, 2004 8:56:09 AM EST
To: nifl-fobasics@literacy.nifl.gov

Chris,

I decided to change the subject line to reflect the content of your post.

How do you go about integrating skills + Big Ideas, for your low literate learners?

Anyone, else?

How about their level of sophistication, thoughtfulness? I don't want to tread on any toes, here, but so much of communication on complex topics comes from reading plus discussion, built up over time. I'd be interested in your thoughts and observations, also those of anybody else.

Thanks.

Andrea

From: george.demetrion@lvgh.org
Subject: [NIFL-FOBASICS:1219] RE: Plateaus for ABE readers--2nd/3rd+Big Ideas
Date: December 3, 2004 12:06:06 PM EST
To: nifl-fobasics@literacy.nifl.gov

Andrea, Chris, others,

I worked with Nancy Lobb's 16 Extraordinary African Americans, a text produced by J. Weston Walch with two groups of students last spring. The biographies went from Soujourner Truth to Maya Angelo and covered a great deal of highly informative themes and biographical experiences. These adults, obviously could read some, but were still quite basic in the scheme of things. One man in his 80s, who had come to the US from Jamaica in the 1940s new a great deal of the history and was able to delineate for us some of the key differences between the Jamaican and African American experience in the south, and how this Jamaican migrant sector in having rights in the segregated south and standing up for them, had an indelible impact on the early civil rights movement. Each biography has factual and discussion questions which we also worked with. Because the literacy skills were still so little developed (in the scheme of things), we spent a lot of time identifying where in the narrative one could find the answer to a question and in their written responses, students were quite literal. Nonetheless, there was a connection with this text, which, as we worked with one narrative after the other week after week, made its own indelible impact in the thinking of the students.

What motivated me to focus on this was our work coming out of Black History Month with its invariable focus on Rosa Parks, MLK and the civil rights movement of the 60s. My singular objective was to drive home the point that the civil rights movement had a long history and did not end with MLK. On that basic point I think the message was carried. While I can't say there was a tremendous amount of new content mastered, I do think something of the phenomenon and flow of American historical experience was perceived. The students did, generally appreciate this text.

George Demetrion

From: sfgraf@clan.lib.nv.us
Subject: [NIFL-FOBASICS:1220] RE: Plateaus for ABE readers--2nd/3rd+Big Ideas
Date: December 3, 2004 12:34:35 PM EST
To: nifl-fobasics@literacy.nifl.gov

Two years ago there was a posting about a reading guide developed by some folks in a volunteer program (I think) in Missouri (or Kentucky?) for _Enemy Women_

The internal war, families left behind, and violence themes were relevant to many of the immigrants in the reading program. Although the book was long and difficult, the project leaders found it a rewarding experience.

I have been trying to develop such a reading guide for _Sweet Promised Land_ a book written about the Basque immigrant experience here in Nevada. I think that book discussion guides might be a good access point for public library services to low literate folks, too.

Has anyone else tried book discussion groups with their new adult readers?

Susan Graf
Nevada Literacy Coalition

From: PHCSJean.2164047@bloglines.com
Subject: [NIFL-FOBASICS:1221] RE: Big ideas
Date: December 3, 2004 5:00:03 PM EST
To: nifl-fobasics@literacy.nifl.gov

You're right, Chris. Adults want to learn more. ESL folks complain that they want to be able to talk about more than the weather. But how do we get from point A to point T? They attempt conversation locally where it is "normal" and they don't have enough words.

I know in working with children that talking about the bog ideas generally helps them stretch to higher levels. I suspect it would be the same for adults too.

Curiously, it's the odd words that the low level readers with no phonics often remember--ostrich and giraffe are recognized consistently in the story while pan and man and fan all get mixed up. Maybe this big ideas is worth a try.

Jean

From: anne.murr@DRAKE.EDU
Subject: [NIFL-FOBASICS:1222] RE: Plateaus for ABE readers--2nd/3rd+Big Ideas
Date: December 3, 2004 5:18:18 PM EST
To: nifl-fobasics@literacy.nifl.gov

What we find with adults who have low literacy skills in our Center is that they plateau at the 2nd to 3rd grade reading level because they lack the decoding skills to read text beyond that level. George, you said, "These adults, obviously could read some, but were still quite basic in the scheme of things." Their "read some" is most often based on memorization and guessing at words. Tom, you said in your program that most of your adult early and non-readers have pretty good phonics skills. In observing adults who come to our Center, I find a completely different profile. Many of our adult learners have vocabulary and comprehension skills far beyond the 2-3 grade level in oral comprehension, but they have very minimal skills in connecting letters and sounds, in their ability to segment sounds in words and to segment syllables in larger words, i.e., phonological processing skills and phonics skills. They can't "get the words off the page." (This is what dyslexia is. See current postings on the LD listserv.)

It's the "Matthew Principle": the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Low literacy skills deprive learners of exposure to the vocabulary and knowledge that good readers acquire through reading. I agree, Tom with what you learned in teacher training: "normal readers will acquire all of the reading skills and strategies needed to read. Everything after that is further refinement and honing."

At our Center literacy lessons are structured to allow time for both direct instruction in phonological and phonics skills and in comprehension. Tutors address comprehension and vocabulary needs by reading aloud and then discussing meaningful text, chosen with the adult learner's needs and interests in mind. In this way, the learners have the rich experience of literature and information without the frustration of fumbling through text that is beyond their instructional level.

When teaching adults to read, those who have vocabulary and background knowledge but lack decoding skills, the instructional focus should be on basic skill development. (The majority of adults in our Center have this profile and learning need.) If they can't independently read at the 3rd grade level, they deserve to be taught the skills to reach that level -- and beyond. Those who lack basic knowledge and vocabulary certainly need to experience text which enriches their knowledge, BUT ALSO include basic decoding skills development so they can become more independent learners. Addressing "philosophy" is fine and a critical component for some learners. But don't deprive them of instruction which builds their ability to become more functionally literate.

Anne Murr, M.S.
Coordinator
Drake University Adult Literacy Center
Des Moines, IA

From: l.cuttler@comcast.net
Subject: [NIFL-FOBASICS:1223] RE: Plateaus for ABE readers--2nd/3rd+Big Ideas
Date: December 3, 2004 5:32:52 PM EST
To: nifl-fobasics@literacy.nifl.gov

Right on! My observations conform with yours, Anne. Thank you. Let's all remember that you learn to read, and then read to learn.

Lucille Cuttler

From: dezreen@excite.com
Subject: [NIFL-FOBASICS:1225] RE: Plateaus for ABE readers--2nd/3rd+Big Ideas
Date: December 3, 2004 5:51:33 PM EST
To: nifl-fobasics@literacy.nifl.gov

When working with ELL's who leveled out at about a 2nd grade level (gr. 5-adult) I initially started teaching pure phonics to them, as though they were in K or 1st. I quickly found this had little impact.

I then focused on memorizing patterns, rhyming, making connections to other words, identifying basic question and sight words, etc. This type of work is typically found in material for post 3rd gr. students. It worked. They were able to read/decode more and apply their background knowledge to be more successful at comprehending.

Why, I wondered? My school just happened to be looking at brain research for continuing education a few years ago. The brain changes at about 8-9 yrs. old. Students who once could learn isolated phonics are now more prone to learning patterns.

While there is a value to teaching isolated letter sounds, especially to get beginners off the ground, it shouldn't be drilled to proficiency. Other methods are much more successful for the older learner and should be attempted.

Kathleen Morgan
Telluride CO

From: AWilder106@aol.com
Subject: [NIFL-FOBASICS:1224] RE: Plateaus for beginning ABE readers--2nd
Date: December 3, 2004 5:37:00 PM EST
To: nifl-fobasics@literacy.nifl.gov

Tom,

By using the colored overlay you are utilizing the eye cells that pick up color--and you are stabilizing the written images. Great example.

Andrea

From: gdemetrion@msn.com
Subject: [NIFL-FOBASICS:1226] connected text and adult literacy students
Date: December 3, 2004 6:47:25 PM EST
To: nifl-fobasics@literacy.nifl.gov

Hi Anne,

If you take a look at the text I cited--equivalent in reading level to the NRP News for You, it will be evident that more is at work than memorizing and guessing. With you, I accept the importance of phonemic based instruction, and we include it in the program to which I'm referring, both in context and in separate lessons. Reading is also facilitated by work in fluency in which manageable and interesting connected text taps into other thinking processes than what is learned via isolated skill work. With Victoria Purcell Gates, I view the whole-part-whole approach sound, with caveats always toward individualizing instruction according to the abilities and modalities of specific students. Thus, while I understand the importance of phonemic mastery, I do not view it as the foundation, or even, necessarily, as the single most important aptitude. What I do think is that unless one has a fluent grasp of the phonemic principle, practically speaking it would be difficult to become an independent fluent reader, but the process of getting there is another matter. On reading and interesting text, Tom Sticht argues that, given a basic baseline to begin with--and he may place that baseline at a higher level than I--student scan read more of such text in which the text is calibrated at a given grade level, than the same level of reading level of uninteresting text.

There is also another factor to consider in the process of learning to read, which is what Lev Vygotsky refers to as the "zone of proximal development." The concept here is that an individual can learn to master that which he or she cannot indendently with the timely assistance of a more knowledgeable other, and the "other" may be a person or a prompt which facilitates that process of extension. When Vygotsky's "zone" is applied to the very edge of a student's current ability positive learning takes place in a manner in which students actually experience new learning, which, in turn, moves into the fruitful arena of learning to learn.

I think that learning along these lines is the more accurate phenomenon of the students I was referring to in the reading of the African American biographies. Much practice with a broad array of text and multiple year participation are the important additional areas. These are the folks who are at the edge of the plateau levels Jean's posts initially sparked, and some have moved a bit beyond even as they still exhibit substantial difficulties with many aspects of the reading process.

Here's a quirky little web document detailing a single learning incident that may bring out a bit more something of what I'm getting at:

Teaching the Word Restaurant http://www.nald.ca/fulltext/George/Rest/cover.htm

Anne, I appreciate your work, your knowledge of reading, and the evident passion and concern for your students that comes across in your messages.

Best,

George Demetrion

From: badger4245@earthlink.net
Subject: [NIFL-FOBASICS:1227] RE: Plateaus for ABE readers--2nd/3rd+Big Ideas
Date: December 4, 2004 12:38:44 AM EST
To: nifl-fobasics@literacy.nifl.gov

Andrea,

I work in a correctional/drug treatment setting. Many of my students, admittedly, are not terribly sophisticated in their thinking. but they want to be treated that way from time to time. During the month leading up to the last election, a discussion developed in class as to whether inmates should have the right to vote. They saw the inability to become part of the election process as one more instance where society was failing them. I saw it as instance where society was punishing them by taking some of their rights away temporarily. TEACHING MOMENT!!!!!!!

I brought in copies of the "Constitution" and we went over parts of it. We spent about forty-five minutes a day, four days a week discussing voting rights, the needs of the many over the needs of the few, the respective roles of Congress, the Presidency and the Supreme Court. Finally, I brought an essay that explained the stance of the various states relating to the voting rights of offenders and ex-offenders. Imagine the uproar that ensued when I told them that nine states took the right to vote away from anyone incarcerated for a felony in perpetuity. The class transformed itself from a group of disinterested adults to a group of men who were on fire with interest.

My point, thought perhaps badly stated at the outset, is that illiterate and marginally literate adults common experiences with other adults but have never had the ability or the opportunity to explore these experiences. I try to give them that chance and our occasional discussions give ride to reading lessons taken from low-level readers and spelling test using words I have had them copy from my chalk-talk sessions, and even trivia contests. Look, I get bored teaching cat, rat, sat, bat, fat.... So I try to up the level of interest.

A final note. Our lesson today came from a the movie Christopher Columbus I showed at the beginning of the week.. The question they asked was, "How did Columbus know the world was round." My answer was, "First you must understand that the Greek figured that out in 600 BCE." They didn't follow all of it but many can now read the words Greek, round, Columbus, tropic, and explore. Trust me. If the teacher studies and questions, so will the students.

From: gdemetrion@msn.com
Subject: [NIFL-FOBASICS:1229] balanced approach to reading instruction
Date: December 4, 2004 8:10:02 AM EST
To: nifl-fobasics@literacy.nifl.gov

Folks,

Anne's observation near the end of her recent message (quoted at the end of mine) is one in which I clearly share, and I assume, shared by the vast majority of adult literacy educators. Where differences arise is in the how and the extent to which the different components interact with different sets of new readers, from the very basic to those moving toward the pre-GED level. With different emphases and focus, enriching content and basic skills is needed and desired at all of the levels; that is, as long as we're working with adults (and children, too, for that matter) and as long as the basic skills of these adults is anything short of independent fluent mastery of print-based texts they encounter or would like to be able to read and understand.

On the balanced, or integrated approach, for my money, Purcell-Gates' 19997 FOB article, There's Reading...and There's Reading, is the most concise, theoretically sophisticated statement on the topic that I've read as a general set of principles.


"Those who lack basic knowledge and vocabulary certainly need to experience text which enriches their knowledge, BUT ALSO include basic decoding skills development so they can become more independent learners. Addressing "philosophy" is fine and a critical component for some learners. But don't deprive them of instruction which builds their ability to become more functionally literate."

From: shellcraig@ix.netcom.com
Subject: [NIFL-FOBASICS:1231] RE: Plateaus for beginning ABE
Date: December 4, 2004 7:40:12 PM EST
To: nifl-fobasics@literacy.nifl.gov

In my experience I have found that why they are coasting at a fourth grade level varies really widely. First, I don't get them in my class unless they are at least at a fourth grade level -- if below they go to the library literacy program. But with the lower level readers, I have started doing running records with one of the standard K-8th Grade reading assessments ( QRI-II) to see exactly what is going on with their reading. I have the student read aloud a grade levelled passage carefully marking both errors they didn't correct and errors they corrected and how they corrected them. Then there is a retelling part where they tell me the main ideas of the passage giving as much detail that they can remember, and finally they orally answer questions that are inference or comprehension. From this, I come up with an idependent reading level (where they can read comfortably on their own), an instructional reading level (where I will target my work with them) and a frustrational reading level. We discuss choosing books to read using the "five finger rule." If you come across five words in the first page that you don't understand, the book is probably too hard for you. Choose something else (I learned this student teaching in 2nd grade).

In each case it has been really different. One student was "reading the text" fine, but couldn't recall a single detail after he finished. Another, when she came to a word of more than one syllable, just made up the ending. Some need the phonological awareness, but I find this is pretty rare at the 4th grade reading level. More often, they need help learning to chunk words and sentences and how to read critically. I spend time with them individually (about 1 hour at first once a week) having them read aloud and hearing me read out loud. How many of us read to our adults? We talk about inflection. I have them mark the text with slash marks where the pauses in the sentences should be and practice reading the story aloud so they can read a paragraph the next week. They need to hear how the phrasing of a sentence matches the punctuation and how to make meaning out of dependent clauses and parenthetical phrases. They need strategies for what to do when they come to a word they don't know (even if they can sound it out). Some need explicit instruction in prefixes, suffixes, and word roots. They need immediate feedback when they are reading erroneously -- and it is hard to do this if they aren't reading out loud. Then we talk about the text. Why did the writer construct the sentence that way? What is the inferred meaning ?

And finally, and I think most important, I don't give them text to read that is way above their instructional level (see www.lexile.com for many levelled texts). The lexile site has books on themes and by author and title. I took the CA State Department of Education recommended reading list and looked up the lexile levels to get an idea of levels. After a while, you get a feel for what level things are. Then I am really explicit with the students about what I am doing. I tell them about the research and about why approaching it this way will help them read better. Once they begin to learn it, many get jazzed at understanding better. They can progress to harder and harder text because they aren't frustrated by not being able to understand what they are reading once they develop some skills.

Most of this I adapted from the book Literacy for the 21st Century by Gail Tompkins (and the word study parts from Words Their Way by Bear). The techniques are written for K-6 teachers, but they work for adults as well with a little adaptation.

By targeting the instruction to the individual student needs, I have found that often their reading levels jump in a matter of 6 months or so from the 4th grade level to junior high level or from junior high to being able to read high school level text. Adults are capable of learning at a much higher rate than kids, if given the chance.

Michele Craig
Woodland Adult Education
Woodland, CA

December 8, 2004

Hi All,

I am fascinated by the notion that you have found thru your experiences the idea of adult readers ‘plateau-ing’ at the early grade levels. I am also curious why none of you mentioned the ARCS study * (as best I can tell), and how it found that error patterns among native English speaking adults more closely resemble children with learning disabilities.

ARCS web site links (added by David J. Rosen, January 9, 2004) [ http://www.nifl.gov/readingprofiles/ ] [ http://arcs.mstream.net/ ]

January 9, 2005
Jackie, I haven't studied the ARCS study, I guess I will, now. There is a whole discussion on what learning disablities are. People, adults and children, learn to read in the same way, so it is reasonable that error patterns of adults and children are similar. If a "disability" can be remediated by proper teaching, is it a disability?
Andrea

I am the mother of an 8 year old autistic child who is the only child in his entire school that has ever successfully completed all 80 online phonics lessons (humorously called “Headsprouts”). Yet, he cannot sound out words in other contexts, and largely only sight reads. His school, which hits the top of the NCLB grade card, is also a unique one in our state in that it is designed entirely around brain research regarding the most conducive environments for learning.

January 9, 2005
Jackie, this is a real puzzle. Your son knows phonics but can't generalize his knowledge beyond one context. He knows sight words. I wonder if he has memorized the sight words he studied in his phonics lessons? I am glad he is in a good school.
Andrea

I’m curious about the relationship between adults who plateau around the 3rd grade equivalency level, and the struggles of children at the same level who have learning disabilities. Does anyone have any comments about this correlation? How might research help address this question?

January 9, 2005
Jackie, Actually I bet the research is out there to unravel this question. Unless you really go digging it is hard to find because different researchers are working on different parts of the puzzle.
Andrea

Best,
Jackie Taylor,
Tennessee

January 9, 2005

Michele and Anne,

Michele, that is pure reading recovery and whole langauge techniqe--but why choose those big names? I think it is really the teacher saying, "Now what exactly is going on here?"

Anne--I agree, the emphasis has to be on increasing decoding. I do think at the stage we are talking about, the proper word is "decoding" the patterns of English.

Andrea

March 2, 2005

I am an adult education instructor who is pursuing a masters. My thesis question is about the adult who plateaus but not between GE 3 and 4 but rather between ABE levels 4 and 5. I am seeing students who are emergent readers but not critical thinkers. They make steady progress from grade level 4 or 5 to around 7.5 to 8.9 and stop. These are the ones I want to help. they are not the majority but there are enough that this is a problem. And it may take years for them to "get it." What happens is a conundrum- for them and me. I wonder if it is the TABE as the tool for assessing? But it is the only tool we have that is recognized. These people are trying to get into academic programs, qualify/pass the GED, whatever. They just cannot seem to climb that wall. I am having an abyssmal time finding support/information in the literature. Has anyone read anything on this lately? I am sure some of this information stated in this discussion will apply to the higher level, such as being readers. Most every one of these non-progressing students must be prodded to read something. Since they are not readers, they are not comprehenders. How to you teach someone to love reading???

Brenda Cousins

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