Adolescent learners in adult ESL/ESOL classes
From LiteracyTentWiki
The discussion thread below, streamlined here, was taken from messages posted to the NIFL-ESL electronic discussionn forum [ nifl-esl@nifl.gov ] in February, 2006.
To: nifl-esl@nifl.gov
From: Lynda Terrill lterrill at cal.org
Wed Feb 8 07:10:10 EST 2006
Dear subscribers,
I want to welcome Sarah Young of the Arlington Education and Employment Program (REEP) and the Center for Applied Linguistics and thank her for facilitating this week's discussion on adolescents in adult ESL/ESOL classes.
Please read Sarah's introductory comments below and share your own experiences, questions, and advice.
Thanks,
Lynda Terrill
English language list moderator
lterrill at cal.org
To: nifl-esl@nifl.gov
From: Mary Ann Florez MFlorez at arlington.k12.va.us
Wed Feb 8 18:00:28 EST 2006
I think it's interesting to consider that many of these students may legitimately be caught between adolescence and adulthood. I have encountered students in the past who are 16 or 17 and have produced documentation that shows that they have completed high school in their countries. They are here, working with adults, as adults, perhaps living with cousins or friends and paying rent, bills, etc. Some even have children already. When they come into our classes, much of what we teach--language and content--seems relevant to them. But developmentally, contextually, they are out of sync. They aren't at the same place that our adult learners are. Does anyone have any suggestions of how they work to mediate that?
Thanks!
MaryAnn Florez
Arlington, VA
To: nifl-esl@nifl.gov
From: Glenda L. Rose glenda at english-now.us
Wed Feb 8 23:36:37 EST 2006
I run into this all the time. A lot of it has to do with misunderstanding the school system. My students have graduated "la secundaria" which looks an awful like Secondary (High) school but actually means middle school. So the public schools won't let them in but they need English. Personally, I haven't had any trouble with them in the adult classes, except occasionally leaving some of the older students in the dust with how fast the retain vocabulary. I alway ask if they have TRIED to get into the high school first. I really feel that's where they need to be, but if they can't get in and they want to learn, I'm going to let them. Our program is mainly self-paced and self-directed, so perhaps that's why we haven't encountered to many problems with them being at a different developmental level from the adults. Besides, many of them have adult responsibilities - taking care of siblings, being the bread winner, etc. I think they add something to our learning community.
Glenda L. Rose
Director, English Now
www.english-now.us
To: nifl-esl@nifl.gov
From: ylerew@aol.com ylerew at aol.com
Thu Feb 9 08:56:20 EST 2006
Could you tell me more about your comment youth have tried to get into high school but they can't get in. Why is that so? It sounds that they within the age of attendance. Is it just a misunderstanding/translation problem about "secondaria"? If so, is there a need for educating the school district personnel around that?
Or is the district reluctant to admit even those under 21 (or whatever the year is in your state) that the district feels may not succeed or graduate? In SD, we encountered the attitude that if students were over 18 (even over 16 in some cases) and didn't have transferrable credits, the high schools strongly discouraged them from entering and referred them to adult ed programs instead.
I agree with you, that for many young people, high school would be a better option than adult ed. Given the limited funding of adult ed, and therefore limited hours of instruction provided, high school can offer more. High schools have everything from science labs to subsidized lunches, none of which exist in adult ed. Also, those youth that need more adult guidance and supervision may not get that support in adult ed.
On the other hand, some young people with adult responsibilities (say they are working until past midnight and don't wake up for school in the morning) may start in a traditional high school but eventually drop out. Or those that are significantly older, in years and in maturity, than their high school peers may not feel that they fit in high school.
What are other people's thoughts about this decision regarding high school versus adult ed? Who should make the decision? What information is needed? What is the role of those of us in adult ed in this decision?
Also, I would be interested in learning about other options people have found that work for ESOL youth. What about Job Corps, Alternative High Schools, YouthBuild?
Thanks!
Yvonne Lerew
To: nifl-esl@nifl.gov
From: Glenda L. Rose glenda at english-now.us
Thu Feb 9 12:38:31 EST 2006
I wish I knew what the real problem was. One parent told me that they were told that mandatory education was only to 16 so their children didn't qualify. Another told me that they were told that since their child had graduated "secundaria" they couldn't attend. Still another was able to get her twin daughters in - but they were mainstreamed within 3 months and not at the English level they needed to stay in. I definitely think it is an area for research and may be something I take up when I finish my dissertation this year.
If anyone else knows why the independent school districts of Texas discourage Mexican teens 16 and over from entering high school, I'd love to hear the real answer.
To: nifl-esl@nifl.gov
From: Bruce Moon bmoon at teachertech.us
Fri Feb 10 00:18:04 EST 2006
When I worked in a charter school a few years ago, we had students who were 16 and had less than a year of high school credits. They had been refused entry by the district high school The rationale was that the students lacked the credits to complete the normal program in a timely manner. I had the impression that the high school feared that the students might become a discipline problem if they were 19 or 20 and still in high school.
Bruce Moon
Rio Linda, CA
To: nifl-esl@nifl.gov
From: Betsy Kubota bkubota at comcast.net
Thu Feb 9 21:27:18 EST 2006
A few times when I've had a student age 16 or 17, I suggested they try to get into the local high school where they could get full time free education. Unfortunately they weren't allowed because they didn't live with a legal guardian.
If they are living with a brother or uncle, that person would have to get legal guardianship in order to register them here in the Chicago suburb of Rolling Meadows at least. Has anyone else run into this problem?
Betsy Kubota
Harper College
Palatine, IL
To: nifl-esl@nifl.gov
From: Glenda L. Rose glenda at english-now.us
Fri Feb 10 08:54:06 EST 2006
You remind me off a situation that occurred back in 1995. I had allowed a young lady (17) to move in with me because her mother ... well, there were some issues. It was like moving heaven and earth to get her enrolled in school. I finally had to write and have notarized a letter stating that I would take responsibility for her with regards to any problems she caused in school. I think I was only allowed to do so because I knew the Superintendent of the school system and had so many friends in the system. I can imagine that apart from these advantages, it would be a daunting task to try and get an unaccompanied minor into a high school.
To: nifl-esl@nifl.gov
From: robinschwarz1@aol.com robinschwarz1 at aol.com
Thu Feb 9 01:37:35 EST 2006
The out-of-sync part was painfully true for the Sudanese group I was well acquainted. Sometime teachers were quite aware of these differences, but often they were not. The Sudanese, badly wanting an education, were patient with it.
Robin S.
To: nifl-esl@nifl.gov
From: Sarah Young sarah at cal.org
Thu Feb 9 10:38:16 EST 2006
It does seem that it's difficult to find districts that will allow older adolescents to enroll in high schools. In my experience with a few high school programs in the suburbs of Washington, DC., they will allow older adolescents to stay in high school if they demonstrate commitment to their education and don't prove to be discipline problems. One of my adult ESL students, a young guy in his late 20s, is married to another immigrant who attends one of the local high schools. She is 24. She's one of only two older students at the high school, and it's no secret that she is a lot older than the other students, but many of them look up to her as a role model.
Is anyone out there working at a newcomer high school or a transitional ESL high school? Is there anything we can take from those programs and use in our adult ESL classes, for those adolecents who aren't able to enroll in one of these alternative ed programs? From what I understand, newcomer schools tend to provide a shorter length of intensive English and content instruction in order to "catch students up" as quickly as possible and prepare them to join a traditional high school program. Newcomer schools often focus their services on those students who had limited schooling in their countries. Transitional ESL high schools tend to be for older students who may not be able to attend traditional high schools for work or family reasons, but who need focused English instruction in order to join an adult secondary education program.
Glenda Rose mentioned the difference between how much faster some young adults learn English vocabulary than their older counterparts. If it's true, as we see in our own experiences, that adolescents might be able to acquire a second language faster than some older adults, how can we pair adolescents and adults together in an adult ESL class so that the adults can benefit from some of the adolescents' language skills and the adolescents can benefit from the adults' life skills?
Sarah Young
Center for Applied Linguistics
4646 40th St. NW
Washington, DC 20016
Phone: (202) 362-0700 ext. 529
Fax: (202) 362-3740
Web: www.cal.org
Email: sarah at cal.org
CAL: "Improving communication through better understanding of language and culture"
To: nifl-esl@nifl.gov
From: Glenda L. Rose glenda at english-now.us
Thu Feb 9 12:40:22 EST 2006
I just want to emphasize that the vocabulary is the only area I've noticed a real difference. As far as learning grammar structures, speaking and writing, I haven't noticed that "the kids" have any advantage over their older counterparts.
To: nifl-esl@nifl.gov
From: Lynda Terrill lterrill at cal.org
Thu Feb 9 11:01:52 EST 2006
The following comment, question, and suggestions are from Maria Zlateva:
ESL teachers typically notice - and diagnose - a gaping discrepancy between the speaking and writing ability of adolescent students (especially Generation 1.5). Students who were raised in this country have impressive fluency but lack awareness of the conventions of academic writing and overall academic etiquette. Those traits are hard to reconcile with the more writing-oriented ability of adult students in a typical ESL class.
What training should ESL teachers undertake to meet both ends of the spectrum?
Suggestions: mini-workshops on diction, register, grammar usage in specific communities, etc.
Maria Zlateva, ESL Director CAS Writing Program, BU
and Assistant professor, English Dept., BU
236 Bay State Rd., Boston, MA 02215
tel. (617)353-2511
mariazl at bu.edu
To: nifl-esl@nifl.gov
From: Glenda L. Rose glenda at english-now.us
Thu Feb 9 12:46:46 EST 2006
I know I've had "native" speakers come to learn "academic English" from our organization - which is designed to teach ESL. Some of these people were generation 1.5 but some were African American. I think we need to look at how the school systems are setting expectations for these groups rather than add to the ESL. Freire emphasized the importance of encouraging the oppressed to find a language of struggle so that they can be heard and initiate change.
The sad thing to me about generation 1.5 is they generally cannot read and write well in the heritage language either. What a world of opportunity we're closing to these groups when we don't teach them how the business and academic world expects language to be presented.
To: nifl-esl@nifl.gov
From: Bryan Woerner bryan at cal.org
Thu Feb 9 11:40:31 EST 2006
Hello,
Following up on Sarah's comments, I think Montgomery County Public Schools allow students up to age 21 to be enrolled in high school, however, my students in the former MCPS Adult ESOL & Literacy/GED program who are younger (17 has the youngest for me so far) aren't always aware of this and take the free/discounted ESOL classes in hopes of moving through to the ABE/GED classes instead. They also don't need documentation (we don't ask for certain information or ID's), which I think they would need if they did go to high school. Since we are now part of Montgomery College, they can also transition to MC courses, provided they have documentation. Our program and the college are also working on bridging the ESL courses to make the transition easier.
Bryan
Bryan Woerner
BEST Plus Operations Assistant
bryan at cal.org
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To: nifl-esl@nifl.gov
From: Mary Ann Florez MFlorez at arlington.k12.va.us
Thu Feb 9 13:10:13 EST 2006
I suspect it might be a little of all of your suggestions, depending on the case: lack of understanding--on both sides--of home country educational documents and their equivalencies here (although here just outside of DC, I think most school systems have a pretty good grip on that now); questions of age, residence (related to the school system, not immigration status, per se); lack of understanding of full options and what might most benefit the particular person; lack of informed advocacy for the student; etc.
One example: a seventeen-year-old came to our program and wanted to enroll. She had tried to register for high school, even though she said that she had finished "high school" in her home country. She was here living with her sister, who was not designated as a legal guardian. She said the school intake office said that they could not enroll her because she did not have a legal guardian. She and her sister did not seem to want to pursue beyond that and came to us because they had seen a flyer about our program. We suggested high school completion, but she said that she wanted to find a job and did not want to commit to that. She also felt she didn't need it, as she had completed high school in her country.
It can be quite a mix of factors.
MaryAnn Florez
To: nifl-esl@nifl.gov
From: Dottie dottie at shattuck.net
Thu Feb 9 22:36:34 EST 2006
We're having a similar problem here in Charlotte, NC.. As a refugee resettlement agency, our caseworkers take the newly arriving families to the public school "international" office to enroll the children & then to the assigned schools. Since Aug., we've had 3 or 4 young Montangard boys/men (18-19 yrs.) rejected by the local high school. Although NC law apparently allows kids to remain in H.S. until age 21, admitting them after turning age 18 is "at the principal's discretion." To add insult to injury, some of their birthdays are "government issued" (1-1- 19xx). [If the date were later, say 12-12-19xx, the boys would have been admitted.]
We're concerned that they're being rejected because of a perceived "inability to succeed" - especially w/all the mandated testing. The caseworkers & I think they'd benefit greatly from the 6 hrs./day of classes, esp. since we can offer only 3-6 hrs. /week of classes.
On the other side, we've had a recently-arrived 16 yr. old (who was in high school) quit because he wanted to work & help his family when his dad was laid-off. Now we're having trouble getting him back into school.
Are there no good answers for these kids?
Dottie Shattuck
HIAS-NC
To: nifl-esl@nifl.gov
From: Marilyn Gillespie marilyn.gillespie at sri.com
Sat Feb 11 12:36:06 EST 2006
Hello everyone,
I am concerned about the many stories of immigrant youth who are being turned away from high school that are surfacing as part of this discussion. Unfortunately, even though by law they should be accepted, this is one of the unintended consequences of NCLB as schools know if they accept these students their test scores and/or graduation rates may be adversely affected. I believe we should gather as much data on instances where this is happening as possible and pass this information along to advocacy groups such as the National Coalition for Literacy who can see that this issue comes to the attention of the U.S. Department of Education as well as other immigrant advocacy groups. Clearly policy decisions should be made that allow immigrant youth to have a fair access to education.
Marilyn Gillespie
To: nifl-esl@nifl.gov
From: dezreen@excite.com dezreen at excite.com
Fri Feb 10 10:55:51 EST 2006
In many states, public schools are required to admit students to 16 years of age. At this point, students may drop out or choose to work, etc. I believe that the amount of state funding the school receives for older entering students may be different or not exist at all, which may be part of the reason why districts are hesitant to enroll them.
In some schools near me (rural Colorado), students who wish to enter school over the age of 16 must petition their case to the school board to enroll. They, their parent/guardians, employers or other community representative need to establish their reasons for wanting to be in school and their future goals, along with providing previous school grades. They may sign a contract with the district that establishes what classes they need to take to graduate, how long it will take and involve behavior standards if that has been an issue.
My high school is very willing to enroll older students without school board involvement, but we have a meeting with parents and guardians, the student, principal, ESL director and guidance counselor to hammer out similar elements. If students are clear that they only want to enroll to "learn English" we offer other community options (GED, adult ESL classes, etc.). Once a student is enrolled, the ESL department is really responsible for helping the student stay in school, for creating a realistic schedule, for networking with classroom teachers, for helping with disciplinary issues, etc. If things start to crumble, then other options are suggested again and ESL connects the student with GED teachers, etc.
This year we have two 20/21 year old students enrolled. One is highly motivated, knows she wants to be a nurse, stays up until midnight working on homework and is a live-in nanny/housekeeper. The other student comes in late, doesn't do homework, etc. His contract is about to break. We've tried to help him stay in the system, but it appears that one of his reasons for being in school is to get perks elsewhere (lower rent, etc.). Many people have worked hard with both students to help make things work and we are content that the students understood what they were getting into.
I think suggesting either of these methods could work in some of the scenarios mentioned in recent posts.
Kathleen Morgan
Telluride School District
Telluride CO
To: nifl-esl@nifl.gov
From: Sarah Young sarah at cal.org
Fri Feb 10 11:00:39 EST 2006
Many of you have shared the struggles that face adolescents who want or need to enroll in high schools at an older age and are unable to do so. What about those ELL students who find themselves in adult ESL classes? What educational and career paths are available to them? What support can teachers and other ESL students offer them?
A couple of the students that I worked with in my classes come to mind. Marcelo was enrolled in my adult beginning ESL class at night and in the local high school ESL program during the day. His English proficiency grew considerably, and he quickly became bored with the slower pace that my older students required and the lack of the academic focus that he was used to in his high school program. Erik was another younger student, a 20-year old from El Salvador with very limited schooling. He was unprepared for many of the expectations we have about classroom behavior and learning strategies. He had a job in construction and the potential to make a life in the U.S., although his legal status was in question. His girlfriend was pregnant and he needed the English, literacy, and life skills that would help make him a good parent, worker, and resident in the U.S.
Do these students sound familiar at all to those of you who work in secondary or adult ESL? What other experiences have you had with them?
Sarah Young
Center for Applied Linguistics
4646 40th St. NW
Washington, DC 20016
To: nifl-esl@nifl.gov
From: Bryan Woerner bryan at cal.org
Fri Feb 10 11:51:02 EST 2006
Just a thought that I wanted to bring up.
A fellow AU TESOL alum and a professor I had worked with some Sudanese men who came to the US as refugees. They didn't have birth certificates and had arbitrary dates assigned at the refugee camps. They believed before coming over here that if you had a birthday that made you 17, that you could go to high school, but if you had a date that said you were 18 you had to go to a GED program and that was looked down upon in their community. Now, that was a presumption brought they brought with them, but there is a social stigma for those who have GED's and not high school diplomas. Personally, it doesn't matter what kind of degree one has. What are anyone else's thoughts as it relates to our ESL students?
Bryan Woerner
To: nifl-esl@nifl.gov
From: robinschwarz1@aol.com robinschwarz1 at aol.com
Wed Feb 15 01:11:22 EST 2006
Actually that "assumption" was backed up by experience. The Sudanese were largely assigned arbitrary ages--those under 18 did indeed get to got to high school--those over 18 went to adult education. Did any of you see the wonderful movie about the Sudanese that circulated in 2004? One of the young men in the movie appealed the declaration of his birth, saying his age of 18 was arbritrary, and he wanted to be declared 17-- he was and was allowed to go to high school in Kansas as a result.
Robin Schwarz
To: nifl-esl@nifl.gov
From: Sarah Young sarah at cal.or
Mon Feb 13 14:22:16 EST 2006
A few other sources where we can get information about what Marilyn mentioned regarding this issue (and organizations that we can try to keep informed as well):
- Center for Education Policy (http://www.ctredpol.org/highschoolexit/) See their special chapter on exit exams and English language learners: Center on Education Policy. (2005). States try harder, but gaps persist: High school exit exams 2005. Washington, DC: Center on Education Policy.
- National Association of Secondary School Principals (http://www.nassp.org ) On the left sidebar on the homepage, click on "Advocacy" and then "No Child Left Behind" to read this organization's "Legislative Recommendations for No Child Left Behind," as well as other documents. (One of their recommendations is to not include ELL scores in calculations in high schools' annual yearly progress (AYP) until their English language proficiency has been demonstrated through a research-based, state-approved assessment -- which would do something to take the pressures off of these high schools that are reluctant to enroll adolescent ELLs)
- Citizens' Commission on Civil Rights (http://www.cccr.org ) See, for example, chapter 17 ("Limited English Proficient Students and High-Stakes Accountability Systems") of the report titled "Rights at Risk: Equality in an Age of Terrorism."
- Migration Policy Institute (http://www.migrationpolicy.org) Although not yet published, researchers from MPI have been working on producing a report about adolescent ELLs and literacy achievement. Keep an eye out for more from this organization.
These are just a few examples of what some are saying in the field, particularly about the effect that high school exit exams and other accountability measures are having on the enrollment and graduation rate of adolescent ELLs. There is a lot more that can be said about other related issues, such as instructional strategies to use with adolescent ELLs, transitions to other educational and career opportunities/pathways, and literacy needs/outcomes.
Sarah Young
Center for Applied Linguistics
4646 40th St. NW
Washington, DC 20016
To: nifl-esl@nifl.gov
From: Cynthia Shermeyer cindysherm at comcast.net
Mon Feb 13 16:43:32 EST 2006
Hello -
I was wondering when NCLB would come up into the discussion. I feel this does influence what districts do. In Delaware - 16 is the magic age to drop out of school. It is also the year the state test is given to determine graduation of high school and other accountability items. (Ells have a one year exemption).I have seen a rise in adolescents in our program for 2 reasons.
1. Adolescents who happen to be in a day school program want to come to adult ed classes at night. They want to hurry and learn English to do well on the test. I have also been told that the ESL classes during the day are too short and focus only on specific school subjects. They want to learn more vocabulary, culture and life skills. Unfortunately if they are enrolled in a day program we can not serve them - but I think if there is room in a class - "listener" status would work. How can I turn away someone so eager to learn?
2. Our other adolescents should be in school but because of reasons Yvonne mentioned I think they are discouraged. Also - many of them need to help provide for their family members.
Cindy Shermeyer
Christina Adult Ed. ESL - Delaware
To: nifl-esl@nifl.gov
From: Bryan Woerner bryan at cal.org
Wed Feb 15 08:39:31 EST 2006
It was called "Lost Boys of Sudan"
Bryan
To: nifl-esl@nifl.gov From: Sarah Young sarah at cal.org
Wed Feb 15 16:40:14 EST 2006
Thanks, Lynda. It was great to learn about the different experiences and insights that colleagues have with adolescent ELLs, at both the secondary and adult education levels. The issues of how, where, and when to educate adolescent ELLs will certainly continue to be discussed and addressed in the field.
On this discussion list, the point about the difficulty of getting adolescent ELLs enrolled in traditional high schools came up on several occasions. School district personnel are reluctant to allow older students into these schools, due to assessment and accountability pressures and doubts that the students will not be able to learn English fast enough to graduate on time. Students themselves might not understand why they would need to attend an American high school when they already have a diploma from their native country.
Once enrolled in an adult ESL class, some teachers have found that adolescents may advance more quickly in certain linguistic areas than adults, or may become bored with the pace set by the other students in the class. These adolescent students may find themselves in new roles as cultural and/or linguistic translators with members of their families, communities, or even English class.
A strong support system is essential to help these students adjust to education in the United States and the various career and life paths that may be open to them. Advocacy groups (such as those mentioned here) can work to ensure social and educational infrastructures that will allow adolescent ELLs to have access to and receive these kinds of supports.
Thanks again to all who participated in the discussion! I look forward to learning more and sharing resources about this issue in the future.
Sarah Young
Center for Applied Linguistics
4646 40th St. NW
Washington, DC 20016
To: nifl-esl@nifl.gov
From: Von Maluski, Tracy J. tvonmalu at epcc.edu
Wed Feb 15 19:03:42 EST 2006
Hello,
I can't believe that in the US, some high schools are denying admission to those ELL's who are of high-school age and don't have a high school diploma yet. Isn't compulsory schooling for those of age the law?
However, I can indeed believe it because of all the pressures on the public schools concerning testing. Very sad situation, though. Unacceptable. We should fight all this high-stakes testing madness. Must be frustrating for those watching them fall through the cracks.
Tracy vonMaluski
El Paso Comm. College
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