Fear of Finishing/Does a GED Lead to Increased Earnings?
From LiteracyTentWiki
The discussion below took place on the NIFL-FOBASICS E-list in March and April, 2005. It begins with the question: "Has anyone ever come across research involving basic skills students who seem to have a fear of finishing (getting their GED) ?" and as it progressed also began to explore whether the GED leads to increased earnings.
From: fergusonc@cravencc.edu
Subject: [NIFL-FOBASICS:1330] Fear of Finishing
Date: March 24, 2005 1:28:11 PM EST
To: nifl-fobasics@literacy.nifl.gov
Has anyone ever come across research involving basic skills students who seem to have a fear of finishing (getting their GED). I have personally worked with many students who are very motivated to get their GED and come extremely close, maybe within one test of finishing, and then they disappear. It seems as though many are afraid to finish. Maybe they're afraid of what comes next - a job, college, just being out on their own. Maybe they're afraid of succeeding - putting themselves above another family member, feeling they're not worthy of success? I'm just curious if anyone else has experienced this or read anything about it. Also, are there any suggestions/strategies for getting beyond this fear?
Any help or pointers would be greatly appreciated!
Cindy Ferguson
www.cravencc.edu
Cindy Ferguson
ABE/GED Coordinator
Craven Community College
800 College Court
New Bern, NC 28562
252-638-1587
fergusoc@cravencc.edu
From: b.garner4@verizon.net
Subject: [NIFL-FOBASICS:1331] RE: Fear of Finishing
Date: March 24, 2005 1:49:05 PM EST
To: nifl-fobasics@literacy.nifl.gov
Wendy Quinones and Betsy Cornwell, members of the teacher research team that worked on the NCSALL Adult Multiple Intelligences research, wrote about "refusal to learn" in their "Focus on Basics" article "I Can't Learn This!" An MI Route Around Resistance (MI = multiple intelligences) http://ncsall.gse.harvard.edu/fob/1999/quinones.htm They write "These are students who, according to Herbert Kohl (1994), are actively engaged in "not-learning....because of conflicting goals"
This seems to be along the lines of what you're experiencing with your learners. They have two references that might be of use. Let us know.
Barb Garner
Editor, Focus on Basics
From: reders@pdx.edu
Subject: [NIFL-FOBASICS:1335] Re: Fear of Finishing
Date: March 24, 2005 5:44:00 PM EST
To: nifl-fobasics@literacy.nifl.gov
Cindy, Terrence, Ujwala and everyone,
Barb Garner has forwarded your recent messages. I'm sorry it's hard to reach me this year while I'm away, I just haven't been following email as closely as I normally do.
On my sabbatical, I'm trying to write up findings from our ongoing Longitudinal Study of Adult Learning (LSAL). I'm not sure how helpful I can be in answering Cindy's very interesting question, but I'll tell you what we know so far.
Let me start with just a bit of background information about LSAL. LSAL is a NCSALL project that has been closely following a population of high school dropouts over a long period of time (6 years so far). Many have participated in ABE/GED programs, many others have not. Many of those who have not gone to programs have still worked independently to try to improve their basic skills and prepare for the GED. Overall, about 25% have already received their GED, and many more have passed some but not yet all of the tests.
Within the population LSAL is following, we see a fragmented pattern of participation in programs and GED test-taking. Over time, some students move from one program to another, take some tests, maybe wait a while, then take more tests. From the vantage point of a single program, some students may seem to "disappear" as Cindy describes even though they actually continue to work towards the GED on their own or through another program.
At the same time, we know from interviews that some adults do have fears related to the GED, as Cindy suspects. We have heard a variety of fears described. Some have to do with test-taking in general, fear of failing, and so forth. Some of these are associated with particular subjects/tests such as math or writing. Some people are fearful of failing (to pass a test), and others are indeed, as Cindy mentioned, fearful of succeeding because of uncertainties about what follows next.
I believe others have written about techniques for helping adult learners deal with fears about particular subject matter like math and writing. Others on the list may have specific recommendations. With respect to helping learners deal with more diffuse fears of failing or of succeeding, I would be interested in what others have to say or suggest. It does seem that connecting counseling and advising services with basic skills instruction is an important direction for our field.
Hope this helps a bit. We'll announce LSAL publications here as they become available.
-Steve Reder
From: varshna@grandecom.net
Subject: [NIFL-FOBASICS:1339] RE: Fear of Finishing
Date: March 26, 2005 9:28:40 PM EST
To: nifl-fobasics@literacy.nifl.gov
I guess I wonder how learner persistence is affected by the perceived value of the GED. What if it isn't a fear of finishing and moving on to the next phase? What if the student questions the value of obtaining the GED relative to her other life experiences and determines that the GED is just a piece of paper? Do we reframe the original question as an issue of the adequacy of the adult education system to create value in the GED? Or, has the adult education system somehow reduced the value of the GED to that of a piece of paper?
Varshna Narumanchi-Jackson
Austin, TX
From: b.garner4@verizon.net
Subject: [NIFL-FOBASICS:1340] RE: Fear of Finishing
Date: March 28, 2005 8:20:05 AM EST
To: nifl-fobasics@literacy.nifl.gov
Actually, the GED provides economic value to many GED holders. It's less valuable to those who were doing well academically in high school than to those who left high school with limited academic skills. It's also the gateway, quite often, to higher education. For information on this that you can share with your students, see "Beyond the GED: Making Conscious Choices about the GED and Your Future" at http://ncsall.gse.harvard.edu/teach.html
I suspect reluctance to succeed has to do with the cultural shift becoming a person "with an education" demands. Learners have to take on a new persona among their family and friends. I think the need to make this cultural shift is a major barrier to completing a GED. In a program I worked with for four years in the early 1990s, we found that women's partners often actively worked to prevent the women from succeeding (via violence sometimes)...Succeeding could mean the beginning of independence. We counseled students from the beginning of the program about this and provided them with resources, but this doesn't mean we were always successful in heading off clashes.
Have others experienced this?
Barb Garner
Editor, Focus on Basics
From: varshna@grandecom.net
Subject: [NIFL-FOBASICS:1341] RE: Fear of Finishing
Date: March 28, 2005 7:28:32 PM EST
To: nifl-fobasics@literacy.nifl.gov
Barb,
You're right. There is a lot of evidence that a GED improves earning power. There is also evidence that culture informs the value of women being 'more literate' than their partners or others within the hierarchy of the extended family. There is certainly evidence of cultural norms dictating the ability of a woman to earn more than her partner as a direct result of her educational attainment. There are a lot of factors that affect student persistence. It just does not strike me as reasonable to suppose that an adult who works all day and makes it to class two to three nights per week gives up because of fear of success.
Thanks for the response,
Varshna.
From: shellcraig@ix.netcom.com
Subject: [NIFL-FOBASICS:1342] Does the GED really mean more money?
Date: March 29, 2005 3:58:13 PM EST
To: nifl-fobasics@literacy.nifl.gov
In response to Barbara's post.
I read the NCSALL information recently about whether earning a GED acutally translates into more money. I believe I read that if the students are male and white, they make about $1000 more per year initially (although this goes up over time). If they are hispanic or of color that the change in their employability and changes in their salary are negligable. And, although the GED does allow them to attend community colleges, only 30% or so of GED graduates do so. I had been looking at this research because our county recently made a goal of 100% of students without a high school diploma will receive a GED. The idea that this is even possible, let alone that if it were possible, it would change the employment situation, is beyond me.
I think the GED is highly overrated as a measure of academic success, and that preparing someone to take the test is not really what I personally consider a good education. For example, the science topics cover things like genetics, chemistry, and photosynthesis. For me, teaching someone how to design an experiment to test a hypothesis, or how to make careful observations, is more in keeping with what real science is and is more useful to their lives. However, the GED doesn't test this. Similary, teaching someone to write an essay for the GED does not prepare them for the college level writing courses I taught at the community college. These same students ended up taking many years of remedial courses at the community college and working way harder than students who received a decent high school education.
I think as educators, our goal should be educating people -- teaching them to think for themselves. Sometimes, this involves the GED, but I feel we are doing our students a disservice by making the piece of paper the primary goal.
Michele Craig
Woodland Adult School
From: djrosen@comcast.net
Subject: [NIFL-FOBASICS:1352] Research on GED Earnings
Date: March 30, 2005 11:05:15 AM EST
To: nifl-fobasics@literacy.nifl.gov
NIFL-Focus on Basics Colleagues,
GED holder earnings is an area where we have some good research, based on employer-reported data on earnings for large numbers of GED holders in several states. I think this research should inform what we counsel students.
Brown University researcher, John Tyler, has found that:
1. Economic benefits to the GED (without postsecondary education) accrue only to dropouts who leave school with very low levels of basic skills. Although the increased earnings may be as high as 15%, this is usually 15% of a low wage or salary, so this is far from a ticket out of poverty. There are _no earnings differences_ between high-skilled dropouts with and without a GED unless they go on for post-secondary education.
2. The biggest payoffs of a GED occur for those who use it to access post-secondary education, but very few GED holders do this. (I think Tyler said under 5%, but I'll have to check that.) However, if they do complete a degree program, the earnings differences between high school diploma holders who go on to college and GED holders disappear.
3. It takes up to five years for measurable earnings differences to appear. The primary mechanism for increased earnings is moving from non-employment to employment.
4. Preliminary results show no impact on post-release earnings for white male offenders who obtain a GED while in prison.
As I interpret these findings, the overall message for school dropouts who are considering getting a GED in order to increase their earnings should be: get the basic skills you need to succeed in college and go on for post-secondary education if you want to earn more than poverty wages. If the GED is part of that plan, because a GED is required to enter college in your state, then get the GED, or an adult diploma. But don't stop there, go on.
Reference:
NCSALL GED Research Briefs
http://gseweb.harvard.edu/~ncsall/research/repbriefs.htm
David J. Rosen
djrosen@comcast.net
TO: nifl-fobasics@nifl.gov
SUBJECT: [NIFL-FOBASICS:1379] RE: Fear of Finishing
FROM: khinson@future-gate.com
DATE: April 14, 2005 6:53 PM
I'm just getting caught up with all my lists due to a death in my family over Easter. I marked this one to come back to and reply to. I wanted to say I've encountered the same thing re: Women and Violence and success. I have a student who finished her GED but is being sabotaged as she tries to actually advance beyond it in her curriculum classes. She feels trapped due to a lack of childcare and as she put it " a bad situation is better than nothing". Luckily she's been open to counseling and advice and being pointed in the right way to resources and all that can help her but it's also been an uphill battle.
I've also encountered students who have 1 test left and then they suddenly start dropping in and out of class rather than actually finish. They literally find reasons why they just can't do the work...when they really can or they become disruptive in the classroom environment. Upon talking to them, I often get told "I don't know what I want to do after I finish my GED" or they're afraid of the "responsibility" others expect of them once they do complete - such as getting a job or furthering their education. I disagree with Varshana's comment that a student can't have a fear of success. Younger ones especially, who've not had any experience beyond High School and Basic Skills who suddenly find themelves facing the big world of Adulthood, look at that final test as an end rather than a beginning - especially if their family circumstances are such that they have been told "When you finish your GED you'll have to a) get a job and b) move out." Some students, additionally have had such little experience with success, that the idea is so alien to them, they do not know how to handle it when it comes to them or when they reach it. Sometimes as an educator, I find myself buidling steps for students to be successful so that their self esteem improves and the fear lessens and becomes less of an obstacle for a student. From where I am with the population and area I work in, "fear of success" is as much an inhibitor for a student completing their GED or even the AHS dimploma program as are purely social/environmental factors.
Then there are the things that are simply out of our hands. I've encountered students who get down to the last 1 test or two tests and suddenly lose their daycare and or in some cases, I've had the Department of Social Services make them quit coming to classes in order to attend a work program through their Dept and/or to get a job. Or a student finds themselves in a position where they have no choice but to work and are no longer able to attend class despite their desire to finish. Accessibility becomes a real issue in terms of work/daycare/family constraints that all build into a fear of finishing. Students look around and wonder where to go next, or what do.
What I'd really like to see is some kind of transition class designed to help students progress from their GED to the next step - whether it's work or further education. I think that would go along way to keeping people in the GED program and at the same time help them address their fears in a positive and productive way.
Regards
Katrina Hinson
