GED postsecondary

From LiteracyTentWiki

The discussion below took place on the NIFL-FOBASICS Discussion List [ nifl-fobasics@literacy.nifl.gov ] in August, 2005.

From: jataylor@utk.edu
Subject: [NIFL-FOBASICS:1421] GED and postsecondary
Date: August 11, 2005 9:24:12 AM EDT

Hello all -

Does anyone know how many GED students go on to participate in some amount of postsecondary? Do we also know how many complete a 2 year degree, and how many complete a 4 year degree?

Thanks so much,

Jackie Taylor
jataylor@utk.edu

From: hbeder@rci.rutgers.edu
Subject: [NIFL-FOBASICS:1424] GED and post secondary
Date: August 11, 2005 10:08:01 AM EDT

There are two post secondary NCES data sets that have GED as a variable, The NPSAS and the BPS. They can be accessed on line through something called the DAS. You can find the DAS here. http://nces.ed.gov/dasol/tables/index.asp#pse_students It will take you about 1/2 hour to learn how to use the DAS but after that you can find out a host of things about GED completers in post secondary. I am sending you a portion of a power point I developed that focuses on the issue.

Rutgers University
Graduate School of Education
10 seminary Pl.
New Brunswick, NJ 08901
732-932-7496 ext. 8213

From: djrosen@comcast.net
Subject: [NIFL-FOBASICS:1426] Re: GED and postsecondary
Date: August 11, 2005 10:27:03 AM EDT

Jackie,

Here's a partial answer to your questions:

On Aug 11, 2005, at 9:24 AM, jataylor wrote:

Does anyone know how many GED students go on to participate in some amount of postsecondary? Do we also know how many complete a 2 year degree, and how many complete a 4 year degree?


From "Is the GED Valuable to Those Who Pass it?" Focus on Policy. Alice Johnson Cain (FOP, Volume 1, Issue 1, April 2003) : http://www.ncsall.net/?id=648

"Finding #3: Since few GED holders go on to postsecondary education, few benefit from the advantages associated with further education and training, but the gains resulting from postsecondary education and training are as great for GED holders as they are for high school graduates.

The acquisition of a GED leads to a greater probability of obtaining postsecondary education or training, and wages increase for GED holders who pursue further education. However, only 12 percent of male GED holders complete at least one year of college, only three percent obtain an Associate's Degree, and only 18 percent obtain any on-the-job training."*

  • Murnane, R.J., Willett, J.B., and Boudett, K.P., (1999). Do male dropouts benefit from obtaining a GED, postsecondary education, and training? Evaluation Review 22, no. 5: 475-502.

David J. Rosen
djrosen@comcast.net

From: silja_kallenbach@worlded.org
Subject: [NIFL-FOBASICS:1427] Re: GED and postsecondary
Date: August 11, 2005 10:30:11 AM EDT

Hello,

I'm posting here relevant excerpts from the lit review section from the evaluation report of the New England ABE-to-College Transition Project. We have looked to research by Steve Reder for information on college persistence rates for GED recipients. It's a bit outdated from 1996 (even though the publication is from 2001), but to our knowledge, there is no up-to-date national data on this subject. Basically, Reder's research shows that only 28 percent of students with GEDs entering postsecondary education had either attained a degree or were still enrolled and pursuing a degree five years after entry, as compared to 54 percent of students entering with high school diplomas. And these figures need to be viewed in light of the low percentage of GED grads who enter college in the first place. Please read below for the full reference.

I invite anyone interested in these issues to peruse our web site www.collegetransition.org and to join the National College Transition Network, which you can do from the web site. The evaluation of the New England ABE-to-College Transition Project will be posted on that web site this fall.

Silja Kallenbach

"Adult Literacy and Postsecondary Education Students: Overlapping Populations and Learning Trajectories. Reder, Stephen in Annual Review of Adult Learning and Literacy, Vol. 1. Jossey-Bass, San Francisco, CA, 2001.

This study examined the experience of adult learners as they become participants in the postsecondary education system. Rresearch on postsecondary persistence and attainment finds being a GED graduate or receiving a certificate of high school completion to be one of seven risk factors for dropping out of postsecondary education without attaining a degree. Other studies (Boesel et al., 1998) report that 50 percent to 63 percent of GED recipients get additional postsecondary education or training (most of which occurs in two-year and vocational-technical colleges and most of which is focused on acquiring occupational skills).

In this study, Reder analyzed data provided by the Beginning Postsecondary Student (BPS) survey conducted by the National Center for Education Statistics. The BPS survey reports on the type of high school credentials beginning postsecondary students obtained: high school diploma, GED, or other certificate of high school completion. Although almost 20 percent of students entering certificate programs had a GED or equivalent considerably smaller percentages of students beginning postsecondary education in two- or four-year institutions had a GED or equivalency certificate. Only 2 percent of students entering four-year and 7 percent entering two-year institutions had a GED. Since 15 percent to 20 percent of all high school credentials awarded were GEDs, this indicates that relatively few GED recipients go on to postsecondary academic education. This finding is consistent with research that contrasts the relatively large numbers of adult education students who report planning to pursue college degrees with the small numbers who actually enter or complete postsecondary academic programs.

Looking at the BPS data on the persistence rates for beginning postsecondary students who enter two-year colleges with a high school diploma or a GED, Reder found 54 percent of students entering with high school diplomas either attained a degree or were still enrolled and pursuing a degree five years after entry, while only 28 percent of students with GEDs entering postsecondary education had either attained a degree or were still enrolled and pursuing a degree five years after entry. The highest persistence rates occured among students entering four-year institutions and the lowest rates for students entering two-year institutions.

Silja Kallenbach, Coordinator
New England Literacy Resource Center
World Education
44 Farnsworth Street
Boston, MA 02201
tel. 617-482-9485
fax. 617-482-0617
email. silja_kallenbach@worlded.org

From: hbeder@rci.rutgers.edu
Subject: [NIFL-FOBASICS:1428] Re: GED and postsecondary
Date: August 11, 2005 10:50:21 AM EDT

Here are the attendance figures for freshmen from the 2004 NPSAS.

Institution %GED
Public, less than 2 yr 17
Public 2 yr 9
Public 4 yr, non doctorate 4
Public 4 yr doctorate 2
Private not for profit less than 4 yr 12
Private not for profit 4 yr non doctorate   5
Private not for profit 4 yr doctorate 2
Private for profit less than 2 yr 15
Private for profit 2 yrs or more 15

The conclusion is the GED completers are more likely to attend certificate granting vocational schools than degree granting institutions.

From: hbeder@rci.rutgers.edu
Subject: [NIFL-FOBASICS:1430] Re: GED and postsecondary
Date: August 11, 2005 10:56:11 AM EDT

  • GED completers want to enroll in postsecondary education
    • Almost two-thirds (64%) of those who pass the GED tests report they wish to enroll in post secondary education. [Source: GED Testing Service]
  • But only a small percent do
    • In 2004, national enrollment in postsecondary education of freshmen who earned the GED was:
      • Public less than 2 year: 17 percent
      • Public two year: 9 percent
      • Private for profit, less than 2 yr: 15 percent
      • [Note: add other institutions from list in message above]

[Source NPSAS]

  • Most GED graduates who do enroll do not complete, and those that do complete tend to earn certificates.
    • Percent of GED graduates who attained degrees or certification between 1995-1996 and 2001 in public two-year institutions.
      • Attained certificate: 34 percent
      • Never attained and not enrolled: 60 percent
      • The N for attainment of associates degree was too low to be reliable.

[source: 2001 BPS]

  • GED Grads are more likely to be enrolled in developmental skills.
    • In 2004, 49 percent of the first time freshmen in 2 year institutions were enrolled in at least one developmental skill course. The figure for GED graduates was 62 percent. [Source: 2004 NPSAS]

From: AndresM@epcc.edu
Subject: [NIFL-FOBASICS:1432] Re: GED and postsecondary
Date: August 11, 2005 11:13:21 AM EDT

This is from our experience. If students who earn a GED are encouraged to go into postsecondary education and assisted in the process of transitioning, many will. However, if they are not encouraged to do this, they will most likely not even consider it. So, transitioning programs are a key element in this equation.

Andres

From: b.garner4@verizon.net
Subject: [NIFL-FOBASICS:1436] GED and Postsecondary Education
Date: August 11, 2005 12:55:34 PM EDT

I'm just back from vacation and was excited to read the rich exchange of information and resources on the GED and postsecondary education that has just taken place on the list.

For more data on the GED, try this link, which takes you to research by John Tyler, who has focused on the GED for many years: http://www.ncsall.net/?id=652#tyler (a newer set of findings, on the impact of the GED on the economic lives of ex-offenders, will be featured in the next issue of FOB, available the beginning of September).

Many of John Tyler's findings are also presented in "Focus on Basics" articles on the GED. Links for these can be found at http://www.ncsall.net/index.php?id=61.

If anyone has been doing research on the GED, perhaps as part of graduate studies, please share them with us.

Barbara Garner
b.garner4@verizon.net
phone: (781) 784-4489

From: rboone@vineland.org
Subject: [NIFL-FOBASICS:1435] Re: GED and postsecondary
Date: August 11, 2005 12:50:44 PM EDT

Just to point out, if 15 percent to 20 percent of all high school credentials awarded were GEDs, and 64% wanted to enroll in postsecondary education, that amounts to 9 to 13 percent of secondary educational enrollment. So that does not support the argument that "only a small percent do." If anything the percents are higher than expected.

Rich Boone

From: djrosen@comcast.net
Subject: [NIFL-FOBASICS:1440] GED and Postsecondary Education
Date: August 11, 2005 3:14:21 PM EDT

NIFL-Fobasics Colleagues,

John Tyler, a research colleague, with Richard Murnane and others, has studied earnings outcomes of GED graduates. In response to a request from me for more information on this question, he asked that I post this message here.

David J. Rosen
djrosen@comcast.net

From: John_Tyler@brown.edu
Subject: RE: More postings on the GED post-secondary ed Question
Date: August 11, 2005 3:01:00 PM EDT
To: djrosen1@comcast.net

David: Could you post this response for me.

Looking at individuals who were sophomores in 1982, and who had a ten year horizon to obtain any post-secondary education, Richard Murnane of Harvard and I found that about 30 percent of GED holders ever enrolled in a two- or four-year college. This compares to about 70 percent for regular high school graduates. We found that only about one percent of GED holders had four years worth of post-secondary credits, compared to 36 percent of regular high school graduates. Furthermore, we found that most of the post-secondary enrollment for GED holders was in two-year colleges, while most regular high school graduates enrolled in four-year colleges.

Work that Magnus Lofstrom (UT-Dallas) and I are doing using more recent (mid-1990s) and detailed data from Texas, supports these same patterns.

From: sjroyce@comcast.net
Subject: [NIFL-FOBASICS:1438] Re: GED and postsecondary
Date: August 11, 2005 2:45:29 PM EDT

Hal and all:

"Learning for Life" my 2001 longitudinal study of the life experiences and attitudes of 70 adult learners who participated in ABLE programs between 1968 and 2000 and were recognized as Pennsylvania's Outstanding Adult Students of the Year, uncovered the following facts about GED graduates' participation in Continuing Education:

  • Education was seen as the pathway to career advancement and personal enhancement.
  • Informal education was seen as an alternative or supplement to formal education.
  • According to their Informal Interviews, 79 percent of participants were engaged in formal and/or informal education; another seven percent discussed specific plans for future education.
  • Forty percent of study participants enrolled in higher education; 20 percent have earned degrees ranging from associate to doctorate; 10 percent are currently continuing their studies.
  • Conflicting pressures of health, employment, family concerns and financial resources determine if and when participants can engage in higher education.
  • Community colleges are the prevalent entry path for GED graduates on their way to college or advanced degrees.
  • Ninety-three percent of higher education graduates entered college immediately after completing ABLE programs; 86 percent of them finished in the normal (two or four year) time frame.
  • Forty-three percent of higher education graduates had financial assistance in the form of pensions, scholarships or internships; the remaining participants came from families where both spouses worked.
  • Participants with learning differences and participants with funding difficulties may take ten years or more to complete higher education degrees.
  • Participants believed that Federal and/or state funding designated for GED graduates who have shown the determination and the ability to do college work would make a difference in GED participation and completion statistics for higher education.

It boils down to the fact that immediate entry after GED graduation is a pertinent factor in the attainment of advanced degrees, that financial assistance for GED graduates is essential, and that we need to identify and establish scholarships earmarked for GED graduates.

Sherry Royce

Dr. Sherry Royce
Royce & Royce, Inc.
1938 Crooked Oak Drive
Lancaster, PA 17601
Tel: 717-569-1663
email: sjroyce@comcast.net

From: khinson@future-gate.com
Subject: [NIFL-FOBASICS:1439] Re: GED and postsecondary
Date: August 11, 2005 2:51:57 PM EDT

I've read the exchange re: GED completion and postsecondary education and I'd like to comment as a GED instructor - one of many hats. Looking at the various emails and feedback from people and noting that one of the statisitcs pointed out that most GED student seek out vocational type post secondary education rather than advanced degrees - wouldn't better questions be to find out why GED students ARE NOT getting a post secondary degree? Wouldn't it be better to find out what is being done to help GED students learn about their options after completing the GED? What are people doing to make sure GED students ARE encouraged to continue their education? Additionally, is anyone considering that a lot of GED students are not the "traditional" degree seeking student? Many GED students are older, have some degree of work experience - from very little to a lot and many have family situations that are not conducive to a traditional degree seeking institution?

It would seem to me that if we knew why students who earned their GED were not going on to get advanced degrees we could address the problems they face, help them find ways to overcome the obstacles and then perhaps the # of students getting a post secondary degree would increase.

Just my take on things.


Regards
Katrina Hinson

From: jataylor@utk.edu
Subject: [NIFL-FOBASICS:1442] RE: GED and postsecondary
Date: August 11, 2005 4:59:20 PM EDT

Hello all!

Thank you to everyone for the research and information you have offered regarding GED students and postsecondary. This has all been so very helpful, and has raised even more questions for me. Like Katrina, I have similar questions as I want to better understand why GED graduates who want to go on to postsecondary do not either enroll or attain a higher degree.

Thanks for all of the helpful information. I've encouraged Tennessee adult educators who are grappling with similar questions to subscribe to this list or to visit the ALE Wiki at: http://wiki.literacytent.org/index.php/GED_postsecondary

Best,

Jackie Taylor
jataylor@utk.edu

From: Michele Craig
Subject: [NIFL-FOBASICS:1443] GED passage doesn't prepare students for college
Date: 8/11/05 6:22 p.m. EDT

Because of their eagerness to receive their GED, many of my students pass the GED with just a 450 average. I would say that this isn't a likely indicator of success in other learning endeavors. If you correlate this barely passing score with say CASAs scores for the same students in math and reading, they are reading and doing math at a 6th grade level.Similarly, what passes in a GED essay would not pass in English 1A. Is this college preparation? These students would not receive decent scores on SATs or ACTs neccesary to enroll in a four year college. Even at a two year college they will probably score into the lowest remedial courses. The GED test is not college preparation in my opinion.

I would say that if the researchers checked the passage scores of GED students who went on to college, the more successful students would be those who scored at 600 or higher. I would like to see some kind of study that would look merely at whether a student passed the test, but at how they passed it.

Michele Craig
Woodland Adult School

From: Katrina Hinson
Subject: [NIFL-FOBASICS:1444] GED passage doesn't prepare students for college
Date: 8/11/05 7:09 p.m. EDT

I'd have to agree with this..in part. I do think that someone with a low score, on the surface, may not do well initially. I think it would depend on other factors beyond the score though. A score of 450 doesn't necessarily mean that a student won't be successful...and that quite simply, not all students "test" well when it comes to multiple choice tests. A test score alone may not be an adequate indicator to use, alone, to determine post secondary success.

A low score may or may not correlate to post secondary success. I do think that if teachers have not done a good job at teaching...and not simply teaching for a test, but teaching students more than workbook material etc, then students who score lower might not be as prepapred as students who have teachers who actually teach critical thinking, analytical and synthesis skills and actively involve students in the learning process. We've all encountered students who only want to "pass" the test, and who don't seem to care about anything beyond that. The question becomes "why?" and "How do we change that?" Also, I"m not sure this applies only to GED students, but I know from my own experience with Adult High School students, that some of them leave and enter post secondary education, even the community college, ill prepared to deal with the rigors of a college class. I've encoutered Adul High School Diploma teachers who never assigned homework and didn't feel they should - k! nowing that their students had college hopes and that by not preparing them for every avenue they'd face, the students were being set up for a difficult adjustment period if not out and out failure. Some Adult High School Diploma students go into the program and only wish to "barely" pass - they may or may not be prepared for post secondary education - Some of the preparation needed to help students succeed in post secondary education, lies with the instructor and their ability to instruct as well as with the students. The goal I'd think would be able to better bridge the gaps and provide the tools necessary for students to succeed after they leave our programs.

Regards
Katrina Hinson

From: Howard Dooley
Subject: [NIFL-FOBASICS:1445] RE: GED passage doesn't prepare students for college
Date: 8/11/05 7:17 p.m. EDT

I just want to heartily agree Michele Craig's observations about those learners in our progams who do want to go onto post-secondary ed. (And I agree that many don't, and that many are so non-traditional that there's little reason to expect them to succeed in traditional settings, no matter how "flexible" or "non-traditional" those institutions try to be.)

When learners enter our ASE program and identify post-secondary education or training as a long-term goal, we discuss those entrance requirements with them and try to incorporate those levels of performance into their learning plans. If they are earning their GED certificate, we strongly advise that they consider 500 their minimum score on any given GED exam -- and that's to enter into the community college. We discuss the efficiency and cost-effectiveness of learning within our program, even if it means staying longer here, before proceeding to their next step. Also, in our day programs, where there are more hours, life-long learning, study-skills, and cooperative and constructivist learning is encouraged; all of which will prepare the learners for success in post-sec ed. As Silja noted, connecting to our transition-to-college (TTC) program is recommended to those learners who would benefit. And our growing experience is, that those learners who do enter the TTC program do persist and are successful.

Finally, what wasn't mentioned in Hal Beder's comment about GED grad's and development ed ["GED Grads are more likely to be enrolled in developmental skills. -In 2004, 49 percent of the first time freshmen in 2 year institutions were enrolled in at least one developmental skill course. The figure for GED graduates was 62 percent.] is the growing body of research that an alarming number of those who enter pse so, well, mismatched that they need developmental education courses, do not persist to graduation. It is my personal opinion that if all we do is prepare our learners to enter developmental ed, we are doing them a disservice.

Howard

From: hbeder@rci.rutgers.edu
Subject: [NIFL-FOBASICS:1446] Re: GED passage doesn't prepare students
Date: August 12, 2005 8:45:04 AM EDT

This is a good point, but I think there are at least two other reasons why GED graduates have trouble in community college.

1. Most adult literacy programs treat GED students with great tolerance. No one complains when they miss a class or come in late. Teachers are warm fuzzies. When they enter community college, it's just the opposite. In most community colleges in this state, if a student misses three classes it's an F. You do your homework or you are out. Thus community college represents a discontinuity that many GED graduates can't handle.

2. GED grads are older and have adult responsibilities that conflict with being a student. They are much more likely, for example, to be married.

As Tyler's work shows, getting a GED has weak economic benefits. Thus we have to stop thinking of the GED as an end point and start thinking of it as a beginning ,because the payoff comes with post secondary, even if that is a short term certification program. We need to place much more emphasis on transition programs and support programs once they are enrolled.

From: khinson@future-gate.com
Subject: [NIFL-FOBASICS:1447] Questions to Correlate with the GED Conversation
Date: August 12, 2005 9:03:06 AM EDT

How many adult education programs have classes related to teaching students study skills and note taking skills and/ or have some kind of class that prepares students in some way for the changes that he/she will face when they enter post secondary education?

If these classes / skills were incorporated into programs, might it not help students to be better prepared for post secondary education?

What other skills might be necessary to help Adult Education students be better enabled for success when they leave our programs?


What services might need to be provided to our students to better enable them to consider post secondary education as a viable option?


Are there changes that need to be made in Adult Education programs themselves, in terms of how classes are set up and what teachers should expect of their students, in order to be prepare them for the next step?

These were just some questions that came to mind as I've been reading/participating in the disucssion.

Regards
Katrina Hinson

From: AndresM@epcc.edu
Subject: [NIFL-FOBASICS:1448] Re: Questions to Correlate with the GED
Date: August 12, 2005 11:32:30 AM EDT

We do this. In fact we developed a program called succes through transitional english program (STEP) many years ago. It is available from ERIC.

Andres

From: silja_kallenbach@worlded.org
Subject: [NIFL-FOBASICS:1449] Re: GED passage doesn't prepare students
Date: August 12, 2005 11:51:40 AM EDT

Because it's possible to pass the GED without knowing algebra or how to write a college paper, etc. is exactly why we need to have free college prep programs that both motivate and prepare GED recipients and others to not just enter college but to do well and complete their studies. With open admissions in many community colleges it's easy to get students in the door, and count them as positive outcomes for NRS, but the question is, are they prepared for the academic requirements of college or know how to navigate the system, advocate for themselves, in order to persist and achieve their academic goals.

One interesting figure from Adelman's research is that students who have to take more than one year of remedial reading have less than 5% college persistence/completion rate in two-year colleges. That means 95% drop out. Even if you account for transfers and stop outs that's a staggering figure and suggest that our field can do much better in teaching reading strategies for college, among other thing.

Silja

Silja Kallenbach, Coordinator
New England Literacy Resource Center
World Education
44 Farnsworth Street
Boston, MA 02201
tel. 617-482-9485
fax. 617-482-0617
email. silja_kallenbach@worlded.org
www.nelrc.org

From: silja_kallenbach@worlded.org
Subject: [NIFL-FOBASICS:1450] Re: Questions to Correlate with the GED
Date: August 12, 2005 11:59:36 AM EDT

The profiles and some of the promising practices from the 25 programs that are part of the New England ABE-to-College Transition Project can be found at http://www.collegetransition.org. We are documenting more promising practices on an ongoing basis. The transitions components in these 25 progams are privately funded, making it more difficult for others to replicate wholesale, but some of their practices can be incorporated into ASE programs. The issue is that there are no designated public funding streams for ABE-to-College Transitions in most states or at the federal level. Until there's a change in policies and concomtant funding, it's difficult for our field to move forward in this area.

Silja

Silja Kallenbach, Coordinator
New England Literacy Resource Center

From: Arner@VSAC.org
Subject: [NIFL-FOBASICS:1451] Re: GED passage doesn't prepare students
Date: August 12, 2005 12:03:43 PM EDT

I've been really interested to see this lively discussion about GED students.

I would just like to put in a word about the value of collaborating with Educational Opportunity Center programs to help GED graduates in their transition to college. There are 139 of these federal TRIO Programs and our purpose is to help adults access postsecondary education. Two-thirds of the people we see must be low income and the first generation in their family to go to college. EOC programs provide counseling and information about postsecondary programs and financial aid and may also provide career planning assistance.

In Vermont we are working even more closely than we have in the past with our Adult Education and Literacy programs. We get many referrals from these programs. We also see students who have sought us out because they want to go to college and then we refer them for help with the GED and continue to encourage them toward postsecondary education.

It seems to me that someone who enters a GED program with the purpose of being able to go on to college might be a person likely to go on to college after completing their GED. This is especially true if they can get good, collaborative help from an Educational Opportunity Center Program and an adult education provider.

For a directory of EOC programs, go to http://www.neoca.freeservers.com and click on NEOCA directory at the left of the page.


Carol Arner
Assistant Director, Educational Opportunity Center
Career & Education Outreach
Vermont Student Assistance Corporation
PO Box 2000 Champlain Mill
Winooski VT 05404
800-642-3177 ext. 690
802-655-9602
arner@vsac.org

From: AndresM@epcc.edu
Subject: [NIFL-FOBASICS:1452] Re: GED passage doesn't prepare students
Date: August 12, 2005 12:14:56 PM EDT

Hal good points. We need to prepare students better for CCs. At the same time we need to work with CCs that serve large numbers of students coming from literacy and GED programs. If CCs promote their services and recruit students and use their financial aid $$$$ to pay instructors, it stand to reason that they will train instructors to work with non-traditional students. If we are going to take money from a single poor mother that wants to enroll in college, then we need to be aware that she will miss class when her children get sick. If we consider that some women are victims of domestic violence, we ought to understand that they will miss class when they get a black eye, or break a rib because they "fell down the stairs", or didn't bring homework because "the dog ate it". So, while we ought to prepare our GED students for intolerant teachers, we need to work so that colleges provide teachers that understand students' needs. That is unless the purpose of colleges is to filter out the most in need.

Andres

From: woods@ncia.net
Subject: [NIFL-FOBASICS:1453] Re: GED passage doesn't prepare students
Date: August 13, 2005 9:19:21 AM EDT

Andres Muro wrote:
We need to prepare students better for CCs. At the same time we need to work with CCs that serve large numbers of students coming from literacy and GED programs.

I don't know if it makes any difference, but if you count the number of incoming freshmen at most any college and count them again in the sophomore year, a huge number drop out whether they are GED recipients or high school graduates. It's probably just as dangerous to generalize about colleges as it is to generalize about students, but the most professors I have known would bend over backwards to help a student if the professor perceived motivation in the student. It's good that some colleges have open admissions and accept students with GEDs or diplomas. After acceptance, whether you sink or swim, that is up to the student. I think we could probably do a better job portraying the rigors of college to our GED students so they will have a more realistic understanding of what it will take to succeed, and with that, be better able to make informed decisions about what they want to do.

Tom Woods
Community High School of Vermont

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