Listservs and Learning

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Subject: [NIFL-AALPD:1248] listservs and learning
From: jataylor_at_utk.edu
Date: Tue Mar 30 2004 - 11:37:02 EST

Hello everyone ~
Some of us mentioned experiences with discussion lists and professional development. Art, you mentioned that you became involved in NIFL discussion lists primarily “mainly as a means of acquiring validation for issues that we were experiencing in the classroom.” Jean, you noted that you participate in listservs as a means of keeping on the “leading edge” and for your own professional development. I understand both of you to convey a PD need for learning and/or discovery over time, is this correct? Can this need for informal PD be met in any other way?

Eileen, I understand you to say that not only has participation with discussion lists been an ongoing, informal learning experience for you, but one that can transcend the online interaction and has potential for lasting change – can you tell us more about what you mean?

What needs do discussion lists meet that cannot be met by participation in other types of interactive, synchronous or asynchronous forums? If for example, one of the national lists were converted to a different format – like a bulletin board instead of a discussion list, how might our experiences be similar or different? What new needs would be met, and what needs would no longer be addressed?

Lastly, how do our experiences with different types of listservs compare? In other words, are the experiences of subscribers to fully-moderated lists similar or different than open lists? How might these two formats impact the learning experiences in different ways?

Your thoughts?
Jackie

Subject: [NIFL-AALPD:1250] Re: listservs and learning
From: Chris Francisco (cfranc2@ilstu.edu)
Date: Tue Mar 30 2004 - 11:49:51 EST

Jackie and all,

I must stress that "staying connected with practitioners from diverse areas of the country" is very important to me. I find that learning from people outside of my immediate human experience is invaluable. I joined the NIFL listserve for this very reason. I also belong to the Charter School listserv to understand other educational components. These resources are immediate and on-going. Often I am aware of key "action" steps that should be taken. The communication is a vital part of my professional health and growth. Again...they must be relevant and they must be nurtured! Be well...

peace,

Chris

Subject: [NIFL-AALPD:1253] Re: listservs and learning
From: Eunice Askov (ena1_at_psu.edu)
Date: Tue Mar 30 2004 - 12:32:16 EST

Jackie, to address your questions in the third paragraph below, discussion boards (bulletin boards) have the advantage of being threaded--that is, people add their comments under a specific topic. In our online classes through Penn State's World Campus we set up separate discussion boards for each topic. Students learn to post to the appropriate bulletin board. I have been amazed at the thought that goes into these postings. Discussion boards encourage us all to think about a topic before making a post. That's what I like about the asynchronous nature because it encourages us to think about what we want to say and encourages learning to take place.

Listservs, on the other hand, seem to be more informal and spontaneous (conversational). One problem with listservs is their disjointed nature due to multiple threads or topics. Often an interesting topic is lost because someone else jumps in with a new issue. As Jere pointed out, a good facilitator (like Jackie) can really encourage thoughtful responses, but most of the NIFL listservs are moderated by volunteers who really don't have the time that it requires to moderate a listserv discussion. Moderated lists, however, can function much like discussion boards as long as the conversation builds in some coherent way. Nickie Askov

Subject: [NIFL-AALPD:1258] Re: listservs and learning
From: Art LaChance (arthur_at_ellijay.com)
Date: Tue Mar 30 2004 - 14:32:18 EST

Jackie,
I think Professional Development - and wonder exactly what does it mean. Improve my ability to deliver services ? That's where I go. Then what is involved with that. What process can get me there. It reminds me of a statement that I heard one time from somewhere that it doesn't matter what you deliver as much as how you deliver it. So training in curriculum delivery or how to fill out paperwork or how to do research or replication of the processes that obviously didn't work for these now adult students confounds our whole process. What I see is a desperate need for cross training from other fields - medical - psychological - rehabilitation – etc into the makeup of an adult who is economically and emotionally depressed due primarily to their lack of education, and how to make effective contact with them to a degree that would enable us to actually propel them into their future.

That's what I'd like to see happen. Cross discipline. Intense awareness activities. Within our capability of understanding the associated jargon.

art

Subject: [NIFL-AALPD:1259] Re: listservs and learning
From: Chris Francisco (cfranc2@ilstu.edu)
Date: Tue Mar 30 2004 - 14:58:19 EST

Art and all,

I know that this discussion centers itself on "professional development" for teachers but must relate some of my remarks to student distance learning experiences. Art brings up some very important issues in his post relating to the why, what, how, and when does distance learning create opportunities for performance improvement. He mentioned the importance of "cross-training" and how this could and should facilitate learner outcomes.

In Illinois we have spent more than three years developing an online, interactive, web-based GED training system, GED-Illinois, for students. This system has gone through extensive field testing and is currently being used by students across our state. Many of you know the vast geographic area of Illinois. We have urban centers, suburban centers, and vast rural regions with students living far from the nearest adult education program. Distance learning can bridge these distances and make accessibility much easier. We all know about the barrier that transportation needs can create for many of our adult students.

In building this system several partners joined the process. We recognized the need for "cross-training" for our One Stop Center employees as the system is offered in these employment centers. Further we recognized that other partners such as the Illinois Secretary of State Office would need an understanding of the system in order to assist their clients at local libraries. In the past two years this training commitment has made a real difference for not only students but the many various service providers. Technology is a core literacy component of our society. Building technology understanding into adult education classes benefits students in their quest for life long learning. We have many "free" points of access to the Internet that many students can use. I wish that I could say all students can access. The digital divide is still a dramatic reality. I will say that Community Technology Centers and Community Libraries are making a profound difference.

peace,

Chris

Subject: [NIFL-AALPD:1260] Re: listservs and learning
From: Bonnie Odiorne (bonniesophia_at_adelphia.net)
Date: Tue Mar 30 2004 - 16:54:31 EST

Yes! I agree. My own small program has seen a significant increase in mental-health-related problems, ranging from Traumatic Brain Injury to those on disability due to depression or other diagnosed mental illnesses. Those who weren't "diagnosed" often were unable to learn because of emotional issues. I did have a PD session, NOT to have the teacher act as a therapist, but to be able to recognize the behaviors, to know some of the difficulties that much of the population have (i.e. reaction to medication), the need for a safe environment, structure; the "stigma" of mental illness). I've had some good success. But I agree there needs to be much more. Many of my friends tell me that what I do sounds more like social work than teaching, and often that's true. But I have a style that chooses to take these kinds of difficulties into account relatively openly (depending on the disclosure desires of the students) and incorporate them into the learning process, to have students reflect on their learning in relation to how they might reflect on their illness, reactions to stress being the major indicator. I did get some indications on how to deal with disruptive behaviors, to negotiate those with the rest of the class, attempting to set clear ground rules and boundaries. If I were one to address skills acquisition above all, I doubt whether these students would (some might say should) remain in my class. If my program is not ready/able/willing to teach, where do they go? I am dealing now with someone who baffles me: when I manage to engage him (which takes a great deal of prodding and a more "authoritarian" stance than I'd like, he responds; if I leave him on his own, he loses track, focus, stares out the window etc. I'm not in any position to "diagnose" him. So what do I do? This is perhaps off the track here, but as you said, we need intense awareness and cross training. I prefer to try to reach the "forgotten," and not to dismiss students because they "don't want to learn," "have too many problems," "always make excuses," etc. Any of which might always be true, of course...

Warmest Regards,
Bonnie Odiorne Ph.D
Program Facilitator
Working Smart
Computers 4 Kids
Silas Bronson Library Information Technology Center
Waterbury, CT
Integrating Technology, ABE and ESL Instruction

Subject: [NIFL-AALPD:1261] Re: listservs and learning
From: Bonnie Odiorne (bonniesophia@adelphia.net)
Date: Tue Mar 30 2004 - 17:05:25 EST

I should have added to my last post that, in fact, our program is in a library technology center,and that some students, in part because of mental health issues that prevent them from regularly attending and functioning well in a classroom setting, do become distance learners. The catch 22 happens that they first need some class time to gain the proficiency necessary to do this, and they might not be able to sustain that. In addition, the regular technology center has trainers that serve the entire city population, and adhere to a traditional IT training model, i.e. having a pre-set sequence, not assessing trainees' needs, or really taking into consideration proficiency deficiencies. In the words of one trainer, every training can't be computer 101. And computer 101 is overenrolled and, again, not exactly profiled to the needs of some learners for a slower-paced environment. Yes, the digital divide is still there, and while technology centers can make a dramatic change in regard to accesibility, the same barriers still apply, at least here, as they always have. Which does not make for a conflict-free working environment, in terms of who we enroll, how they're viewed, and outside unverified opinions about our "effectiveness."

Warmest Regards,
Bonnie Odiorne Ph.D
Program Faciliator
Working Smart
Computers 4 Kids
Silas Bronson Library Information Technology Center
Waterbury, CT
Integrating Technology, ABE and ESL Instruction

Subject: [NIFL-AALPD:1263] Re: listservs and learning
From: Dlhargrove@aol.com
Date: Tue Mar 30 2004 - 17:51:14 EST

Group,
In regards to Jackie's questions regarding discussion lists:

"What needs do discussion lists meet that cannot be met by participation in other types of interactive, synchronous or asynchronous forums?"

As others have mentioned, the usefulness of discussion lists will vary from user to user. I am subscribed to a number of the NIFL lists, but use them primarily to see what others are doing in my field. In some instances, the subject doesn't mean as much to me as others and for those, I merely pass them by. But there are many cases where colleagues use the lists to share information and guidance on tons of issues. I may not contribute alot, but I sure get alot of information. Discussion lists come to us, through email... we don't have to go looking for the dialogue. But, as a result... we all can have 20-30 emails a day just from the list! Having access to a online bulletin board doesn't clog up our emails and allows us the opportunity to see a succession of messages or threads.

I feel like I'm rambling on here, but I think there's value in both forms of communication. It would be nice to be able to go to a bulletin board and see how a particular topic has evolved over a period of time, problem is... I'm not sure I'd go there as often as I read the messages on the discussion lists.

How do others feel?

Debra

Debra L.Hargrove, Ed.D
Technology Coordinator
Florida TechNet
www.floridatechnet.org

Subject: [NIFL-AALPD:1264] Re: listservs and learning
From: Christy Nelson (cnelson_at_nwm.cog.mi.us)
Date: Tue Mar 30 2004 - 18:28:24 EST

Good points Deb. I also "lurk" on many discussion lists and bulletin boards mainly to obtain information. While multiple emails in an already full mailbox may become tedious, I still find that I read and use them much more often than visiting a bulletin board. I also like the fact that an email message can be saved easily for later reference, and forwarded to individuals for informational purposes.

Christina Luckey-Nelson
Adult Education Coordinator
TBAISD Adult Education
1209 S. Garfield - Suite C
Traverse City, Michigan 49686
231-922-3710

Subject: [NIFL-AALPD:1265] Re: listservs and learning
From: Beth Wheeler (bwheeler@sbctc.ctc.edu)
Date: Tue Mar 30 2004 - 19:11:49 EST

good afternoon,
this is my first foray into the world of "listserves". i've intentionally steered clear because i've seen colleague's mailboxes fill to overflowing. if i had to make a choice between an open discussion board and a discussion list, i would choose the discussion board. it "feels" less intrusive. i'm also a compulsive e-mail answerer - which means i could become addicted and spend hours each day in reading and responding to postings. on the other hand, the postings i have read in the past 24 hours have included information i will share with professional development providers in our state. i guess both formats contain positives and negatives.

beth wheeler, program administrator
distance learning
office of adult literacy
sbctc
olympia, washington

Subject: [NIFL-AALPD:1266] Re: listservs and learning
From: Art LaChance (arthur@ellijay.com)
Date: Wed Mar 31 2004 - 08:19:24 EST

I think that what we'll find IF somebody ever actually does a long term look into a real adult literacy classroom that consistently demonstrates high degrees of low skill level completions we will find this exact philosophy being exercised on an hourly basis.

The problem is that while the funding sources expect success and set those rates higher each funding cycle we as field are being left to our own devices to train ourselves in the measures indicated by Bonnie here, and that doesn't appear to me to be in the best interest of the student nor the teaching staff.

art

Subject: [NIFL-AALPD:1267] clarification please
From: Nancy L Markus (nmarkus_at_juno.com)
Date: Wed Mar 31 2004 - 08:27:33 EST

On Wed, 31 Mar 2004 08:18:33 -0500 (EST) "Art LaChance"
<arthur@ellijay.com> writes:

I think that what we'll find IF somebody ever actually does a long term look into a real adult literacy classroom that consistently demonstrates high degrees of low skill level completions we will find this exact philosophy being exercised on an hourly basis.


I am unsure what philosophy you are refering to. Would you please clearly define it for me?
Thanks mcu..

Nancy Markus

Subject: [NIFL-AALPD:1271] Re: listservs and learning
From: George Demetrion (george.demetrion_at_lvgh.org)
Date: Wed Mar 31 2004 - 12:19:05 EST

One of the values of the listservs also, are the archives. Thus, even as many of the posts seem improvisational and off the cuff (and yet, many are not), and even as there may be 3-4 threads going at a time (not typically though on most lists), perhaps the coherency can be found through the pursuit of specific themes drawn from the primary resources of the archives (the historical record of the field speaking to itself, in real-like time).

Even still, I agree, that often it has proven difficult to maintain a consistent line of discussion over a significant period of time, which, however, may be partially meliorated by building on various chains of postings in the archives on the key topics.

Where I do think more work could take place is in the piecing together and even elaboration of thematic topics that could then get website, that might serve a variety of purposes. There has been some of that on the lists, but I believe more could be done with the rich archival qualitative data base that the field has created in its various real time discourse across geography, programs, positions, and points of view.

Of course, other modes of on-line discourse are also valuable. Perhaps it's a matter of both/and (looking at the strengths of the various communication channels for what they offer) rather than either/or. Not that anyone is suggesting either/or. Even still, I want to keep a sharp focus on what the various channels have to offer; one that includes an honored place for off-the cuff improvisation as well as for more deliberative discourse.

George Demetrion

Subject: [NIFL-AALPD:1275] Re: clarification please
From: Art LaChance (arthur@ellijay.com)
Date: Wed Mar 31 2004 - 13:11:51 EST

Nancy,
I borrow from Bonnie here:

".....a significant increase in mental-health-related problems, ranging from Traumatic Brain Injury to those on disability due to depression or other diagnosed mental illnesses."

Those who weren't "diagnosed" often were unable to learn because of emotional issues. I did have a PD session, NOT to have the teacher act as a therapist, but to be able to recognize the behaviors, to know some of the difficulties that much of the population have (i.e. reaction to medication), the need for a safe environment, structure; the "stigma" of mental illness). I've had some good success. But I agree there needs to be much more. Many of my friends tell me that what I do sounds more like social work than teaching, and often that's true. But I have a style that chooses to take these kinds of difficulties into account relatively openly (depending on the disclosure desires of the students) and incorporate them into the learning process, to have students reflect on their learning in relation to how they might reflect on their illness, reactions to stress being the major indicator. I did get some indications on how to deal with disruptive behaviors, to negotiate those with the rest of the class, attempting to set clear ground rules and boundaries. If I were one to address skills acquisition above all, I doubt whether these students would (some might say should) remain in my class. If my program is not ready/able/willing to teach, where do they go?"’’

I do not think there is an increase in these numbers of student conditions, they've been there all along. Whether we've recognized it or not. This is the norm. The norm is not the 20% or so of public school students who complete the educational process unfettered and reading at a 12th grade level and ready for college. The norm is the 50% or better of our population who didn't get a complete take on it. For whatever reason. We need to realize that we in adult literacy only effectively serve about 5-10% of the group who need adult literacy services to improve their skills therefore the students who actually show up have reached a point in their lives where they are willing to face the exceptionally strong emotional issues that Bonnie refers to above. Whether we are ready to recognize and deal with it effectively and are able to help that person succeed probably for the first time in their lives - that is the question. Should we be professionally trained in those skills mentioned by Bonnie – is the second question.

art

Subject: [NIFL-AALPD:1294] RE: listservs and learning
From: Marrapodi, Jean (JMarrapodi@phcs.com)
Date: Wed Mar 31 2004 - 16:39:44 EST

Jackie asked:

”Jean, you noted that you participate in listservs as a means of keeping on the "leading edge" and for your own professional development. I understand both of you to convey a PD need for learning and/or discovery over time, is this correct? Can this need for informal PD be met in any other way?”

In many respects, this is like reading a newspaper, magazine or journal. You are handed whatever the author thought was important, and pick and choose what interests you. The key difference is the commonality of the community of practice being so specific on a liserv/blog. The needs and skills are similar in the participants, so the topics fit the specific niche really well.

You can meet this type of informal PD in association meetings and conferences, but I'm not so sure we'd count those as informal. I suppose I could search the web if I had a specific topic and call that informal PD. The advantage of the push technology of a listserv is that topics come up that I wouldn't necessarily have thought of. I might not take the time to take a class about a particular topic, but there may be an interesting trend someone is speaking about in a blog or in a listserv that I'd receive info on that I wouldn't have looked for. This discussion is a great example. I wouldn't have gone out of my way to look for things about professional development for AL/ESL teachers, though it is a perfect integration of two worlds I work closely in.

The trick is to take what is useful and ignore the rest and not be overwhelmed by the volume. Many listservs have a digest form, which I prefer, when you get the days postings in one e-mail, rather than individually like this. Many are also archived in threads on a webpage so you can keep track of the topics. Lots of folks prefer to read things in order, so that works for them.

Thanks for asking.
Jean Marrapodi
Senior Education Specialist
Private Healthcare Systems

Subject: [NIFL-AALPD:1295] Re: listservs and learning
From: Marrapodi, Jean (JMarrapodi@phcs.com)
Date: Wed Mar 31 2004 - 16:45:41 EST

Chris Francisco commented:

”I must stress that "staying connected with practitioners from diverse areas of the country" is very important to me. I find that learning from people outside of my immediate human experience is invaluable.”

I totally agree here. I've found that leading edge researchers (ok, famous folks in an industry) participate on these forums, and you'll often get key input from leaders in the field.

Jean Marrapodi
Senior Education Specialist
Private Healthcare Systems

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