Online F2F and Judging

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Subject: [NIFL-AALPD:1285] online, face-to-face, and judging appearances
From: Eileen Eckert (eileeneckert_at_hotmail.com)
Date: Wed Mar 31 2004 - 15:04:23 EST

I agree with lots of the comments on the importance of a face-to-face component to a mainly online course. To play devil's advocate (again) though, courses that never involve a face-to-face meeting take away many of the opportunities to incorporate appearances into our evaluations of others' ideas.

We can still make assumptions based on names, writing style, tone, and usage, and information the participants choose to disclose, but we don't have appearance, and I think that's a major source of stereotypical judgments (not that we make them on purpose, but it's very hard to overcome acculturation).

What do others think?

Eileen

Subject: [NIFL-AALPD:1323] Re: online, face-to-face, and judging
From: Eunice Askov (ena1_at_psu.edu)
Date: Fri Apr 02 2004 - 12:31:51 EST

Eileen, I am really glad you made this comment. Our Penn State students are from all over the world so face-to-face is not possible! I have heard from students that they are glad not to be seen, especially if they are doing course work late at night in their p.j.s! A woman in my class was a paraplegic who had had difficulties with access at other higher ed. institutions (especially during the winter). It is also very interesting because we do not know a person's racial or ethnic background. Sometimes a person will say, later in a course, "This issue is important to me because I am African American." Online instruction really is a leveler of race, ethnicity, social class, etc. which I believe enhances learning since we can hear all viewpoints equally. Nickie Askov

Subject: [NIFL-AALPD:1326] NIFL-AALPD:1323] Re: online, face-to-face, and judging
From: Bonnie Odiorne (bonniesophia_at_adelphia.net)
Date: Fri Apr 02 2004 - 16:52:19 EST

I've been monitoring with interest the exchange about face-to-face vs. a "total" distance learning environment, particularly that between Eileen and Nickie, regarding distance learning as having the potential to defuse stereotypical assumptions in acculturation, or "leveling". I'm not at all sure about this. I suspect that we might make the same assumptions via appearance as we might from names, ways of speaking/writing, level of expertise. In other words, acculturation will always be at play, and that the assumption of neutrality or "leveling" in the "faceless" environment of distance learning needs to be looked at very carefully. When you mentioned, Nickie, that sometimes someone might reveal their race or ethnicity later in the course, I wonder about that. Could that imply that "before" that revelation all things were equal but that now they're not, that our assumptions have been put back into place? Or would a person's revelation about race or ethnicity come as surprising because a "neutral" position in our socio-economic power structures might be assumed at "white?" (or educated, or whatever). I'm not meaning to offend by asking these questions, and I've not had the chance yet to be "on the other side of the monitor (desk)" as a distance learning teacher. I wonder what others might think?

The issue of gender is here as well, since it's not as "easy" to conceal gender... I can remember some five years ago when my program got started we were really thrilled to be all women in a domain that had been rather exclusively male, that of technological "experts."

I'm equally interested about someone not having to care about their appearance when they "attend" class, which might be similar to people's working at home or telecommuting. I'm also interested in the paraplegic, who is using distance learning as to my mind it is meant, i.e. to overcome distance and/or transportation barriers, which as an individual with a visual impairment I share. What assumptions might you make about me if I were slower than some to do a web search because my eyesight was a factor in the quick scanning of information? Would I give the impression of an "inefficient" reader? Again, I don't ask from defensiveness, but I sincerely want to know, because the question addresses the fears I had had about joining a "regular" computer training, that I'd "slow down the class." Turns out that I do have the proficiency to keep up in a "mainstream" environment, but there might be a button or dialogue box or whatever I might not immediately see. Which addresses the issue of the differences in reading print vs. in the technology medium.... These musings do get one far afield, but all have to do with some kind of "positional" assumptions of competence, certainly; power perhaps, in the distance learning environment, and might again be a factor in students' retention, participation in discussions etc.

Warmest Regards,
Bonnie Odiorne Ph.D
Program Faciliator
Working Smart
Computers 4 Kids
Silas Bronson Library Information Technology Center
Waterbury, CT
Integrating Technology, ABE and ESL Instruction

Subject: [NIFL-AALPD:1329] Re: online, face-to-face, and judging
From: Eileen Eckert (eileeneckert_at_hotmail.com)
Date: Mon Apr 05 2004 - 08:23:35 EDT

Hi Bonnie, and others,
I have been trying without success to find the student comment in an article on online learning that triggered my writing. In that course, students met face-to-face after the course was over, and one wrote that she developed a sympathetic or friendly relationship with a fellow student whom, if they had both been in a classroom together, she would have dismissed based on her appearance. In that case I believe it wasn't race or class; I think it was just style--maybe Birkenstock vs. business suit.

I've facilitated online courses in which I never met my students, and there were times I did instinctively jump to conclusions based on name, writing style, a few disclosures, etc. For "instinct" read "culturally conditioned and hard-to-overcome stereotyping." A good thing about solely online learning is that in the absence of a physical impression of someone, I was prodded more to become aware of the stereotyping I was doing. So I saw a Latina name--what did I expect from that? And despite personal experience to counter familiar stereotypes, and despite hours of diversity training (which may be where my bias against formal training originated), the weight of ingrained prejudice was such that I expected her to have some basic skills difficulties. But when that happened based only on a name, it prompted me to question why I would leap to that conclusion, whereas if we had been in a classroom I might have taken appearance into account and probably not given much thought to jumping to whatever conclusion I would have reached. I still wouldn't have had real evidence, I just would have had appearance as well as a name, and I think we all unconsciously make judgments on that flimsy basis all the time. Without it, maybe we're prompted to become a little more aware? Or maybe we don't jump to the same conclusions?

Then again, maybe we would, and do.

Subject: [NIFL-AALPD:1341] Re: NIFL-AALPD:1323] Re: online, face-to-face,
From: Eunice Askov (ena1_at_psu.edu)
Date: Mon Apr 05 2004 - 08:34:34 EDT

Bonnie, I don't know how to answer your questions. Of course, we all make assumptions about others based on a person's communications in a distance education course. I didn't mean to imply that these assumptions would not exist. However, it is more subtle than if the person is sitting in a classroom. Some students find that liberating (for whatever reason), or so they have told me.

It is interesting, to me at any rate, that people reveal what they want about themselves in this learning environment. (The intent of the student home pages is to let us get to know each other.) Since you mention visual impairment, I had a student who very openly revealed that she was visually impaired. It seemed to be part of her identity, I guess, because it didn't affect her performance in our online course. (Maybe she was concerned that it would affect her performance.) Another student was very concerned about being older than the other students, a fact that she mentioned in a private email. She unfortunately dropped the course, expressing that she was too old to learn in that environment. I also had a student with one of those names that could be either male or female. The student whom I had assumed was female turned out to be a male (revealed when he mentioned his wife!).

Regardless, I do feel that I get to know students well in this medium. Some of them share very personal things, usually privately and often when they are unable to keep an assignment deadline. But I have also had students share good news, both privately and openly. The class that I had during the semester of Sept. 11th became particularly close as one of the students had a relative who was missing and then found dead in the tragedy. (She gave us regular updates as they searched for her relative. At the end of the course she thanked us all for being her support group.) I'm not sure that people are that open in a face-to-face environment. It reminds me of the person on the airplane sitting next to you who tells you their life story (or their fears and concerns) because they know they will never see you again!

To bring this discussion back to online professional development, the situation I am describing is probably very different because our students are scattered geographically. They are engaging in Penn State courses online because of their individual desire for professional development certified by a certificate (as in the Certificate in Family Literacy) or a degree (as in our M.Ed. in Adult Education). Many non-credit PD opportunities may involve groups of teachers where they already know each other or at least have some commonalities of teaching experiences, needs, and interests. Does this make a difference in retention? In learning? I don't know.
Nickie

Subject: [NIFL-AALPD:1350] Re: NIFL-AALPD:1323] Re: online, face-to-face,
From: Bonnie Odiorne (bonniesophia_at_adelphia.net)
Date: Mon Apr 05 2004 - 15:35:05 EDT

Nickie and Eileen,
Thanks for your answers. I suspected that if we thought a bit more we'd come up with more nuanced answers about online stereotyping: the important thing is to be aware, and, perhaps, think about other aspects of the online culture. I've not done a lot of chat, but there's the emoticon and other print and text conventions that supposedly convey feelings that don't come across online; I've never felt particularly constrained expressively myself, or felt that in others. Has anyone else experienced a spillover of online "netiquette" issues from the wider area of chat and the Internet? I think also of the abbreviations of text messaging... Just curious. As for the novice, not used to typing a lot, how would that impact ease of expressivity? And does acquisition of PD AND technology skills simultaneous impact the learning curve. I'm interested in your "little old lady", and why she felt discouraged. We're getting beyond race/ethnicity to the whole issue of online learning, ease with the medium, reflection on one's learning etc.

Warmest Regards,
Bonnie Odiorne Ph.D
Program Faciliator
Working Smart
Computers 4 Kids
Silas Bronson Library Information Technology Center
Waterbury, CT
Integrating Technology, ABE and ESL Instruction

Subject: [NIFL-AALPD:1351] Re: online, face-to-face, and judging
From: Rejoicer_at_aol.com
Date: Mon Apr 05 2004 - 17:22:16 EDT

Eileen commented on the thrill of meeting the students face to face after being online together. Palloff and Pratt, in Building Learning Communities in Cyberspace : Effective Strategies for the Online Classroom, discuss the importance of creating community in the online classroom, and I would suspect that a strong community was established in their classroom, and the face-to-face crystalized that. In my graduate program, wholly online, we are required to attend three residencies during the course of our PhD work. These are the places that you put the name and the face together. Even though our courseroom posts pictures, the in-person meeting really is different.

Like any other class, though, you can sit beside someone all semester and never connect. It isn't all that different online. The key is to facilitate the connections.

Jean Marrapodi

PS. My office server decided these are spam (egad!) so I will be working from this e-mail moving forward.

Subject: [NIFL-AALPD:1353] Re: NIFL-AALPD:1323] Re: online, face-to-face,
From: Marian Thacher (mthacher_at_otan.us)
Date: Mon Apr 05 2004 - 23:24:39 EDT

I also had a student with one of those names that could be either male or female. The student whom I had assumed was female turned out to be a male (revealed when he mentioned his wife!).

On the other hand, there are women these days who also have wives, so yet another assumption bites the dust.  :)

Marian Thacher
OTAN

Subject: [NIFL-AALPD:1362] Re: online, face-to-face, and judging appearances
From: Cynthia Barnes (cbarnes2_at_ccc.edu)
Date: Wed Apr 07 2004 - 13:58:18 EDT

Eileen,

I think that you make a very good point. One of the most important "up sides" of online and distance courses is the fact that they help us to interact with one another sans the usual biases that we have about others' appearances.

In fact, I visited a school some years ago where all students were required to wear uniforms. I thought that the uniforms were for the students' benefit, i.e., to eliminate rivalry and bullying, etc. However, the principal told me that the students wore uniforms so that the teachers would not be able to tell what socio-economic group the children were from (based on considerable research that documents the connection between teacher expectations and student performance). That experience was a real eye-opener.

And for people who everyday are judged, first, by what they look like and, perhaps later, by who they are, you can't imagine how wonderful it is to be able to interact in a "color/class/gender/age-blind" medium.

Having said this, the digital divide still represents formidable obstacles for some learners, i.e., those whose socio-economic and/or academic "disadvantages" have not helped them acquire computer literacy.

By the same token, until on-line and other media incorporate voice-actuated and non-written dimensions (I'm sure some already do) where people for whom written communication is more challenging can participate, some will still be excluded from learning in this way, just as they may be handicapped in face-to-face learning situations.

Conversely, helping learners learn to navigate and negotiate online learning creates a need to know that can be a real motivator for helping students develop computer competencies and improving writing skills. A community college in Washington State teaches ESL, in part, through an Introduction to Computers course. Students must learn to use the computer (and all of the vocabulary associated with it) at the same time that they improve their writing and speaking skills by writing email messages to one another and reading those sent to them.

Well, I've rambled on enough about this. I've truly enjoyed the wealth of information this forum has provided.

Blessings,

Cynthia

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