To Post or Not to Post? Benefits/Issues with "Lurking"

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Subject: [ProfessionalDevelopment 1162] Leap to Online Facilitation (was Participation, Engagement, and Completion)
From: Taylor, Jackie jataylor at utk.edu
Date: Thu May 17 10:49:52 EDT 2007

Hello Leslie, Katherine, Leecy, and All,

Leecy, you mentioned yesterday (regarding participation, "carrots" and incentives) that even the best constructed blended PD doesn't necessarily mean "they will come." You expressed the need to layer the incentives. Katherine and others have expressed the value of interaction in online learning, Katherine noted a key need to move from "speaker" and thus "teacher" to "writer" and "facilitator."

But even if they "do come" when one builds the ship, so to speak, it doesn't necessarily mean that they will interact online. They may read or reflect, or hesitate for whatever reason. What are some of the keys to unlocking interactivity online? How does one motivate contributions?

What is the next leap in the learning curve to becoming an online facilitator?

Best, Jackie Taylor, jataylor at utk.edu

Subject: [ProfessionalDevelopment 1174] Re: Leap to Online Facilitation & how 'bout you lurkers!
From: Marie Cora marie.cora at hotspurpartners.com
Date: Thu May 17 14:09:37 EDT 2007

Hi everyone,

Yes, I agree: Jackie you are modeling much of what makes a good on-line facilitator. The person facilitating must synthesize and guide and that is accomplished through many of the examples we have here: providing threaded summaries, revisiting questions, prodding and prompting, etc. This is exhausting work on line because so much of it depends on writing, and of course you do not have that immediate gauge of body language, facial expressions, classroom tenor, to help you make decisions. You get good at reading between the lines of writing. I double up communication by using regular email in addition to the learning platform - it adds a slightly different layer, it's in a slightly different format/space, and my emails usually follow different patterns than communication at discussion board or during chat. Email is the space where I do a lot of this background work that helps support the learning environment. It's also where I send those reminder/prodding emails to keep people on track. I try to respond to each and every post by learners so that the interactivity is impossible to ignore, and I ask a LOT of questions.

But this is in the venue of an organized, signed-up-for on-line course. There are certain expectations I have of these participants that generally ring true (that they want to be there for the duration and have specific and particular interest in the topic; I can be assured of direct communication with each person). Managing or rather moderating a large discussion list = such as this one - is a whole new ball of wax. I would be really really interested to hear from people on this list about what they get out of the discussions when they do not actively participate. I just did a quick check of the AALPD Discussion List archives, and it looks like about 35 subscribers out of some 800 (correct that number if I'm way off Jackie!) are having the conversation. So what are the rest of you doing with this discussion? Do you use it in some way in your own practice or program? Do you forward it or tell others about it?

What makes you post or not? Time constraints? Comfort level? Would you be more likely to post to a discussion list like this one if you already have experience in other on-line venues? Are there professional development activities that Discussion List Moderators could employ that would encourage participation by folks who read and don't post? Anyway, as a Discussion List Moderator, I am constantly trying to figure out how to draw out the lurkers; and consequently, I am forever intrigued about the outcomes there because we have no way of knowing what, if any, is the impact of the Discussion List on lurkers. We might be able to do some follow-up and continued discussion with those who post, and this is difficult enough. But to hear from those who are silent would be the best treat.

Marie Cora

Subject: [ProfessionalDevelopment 1169] Re: Leap to Online Facilitation (was Participation, Engagement, and Completion)
From: Crystal Hack chack at cait.org
Date: Thu May 17 13:39:54 EDT 2007

Hi,

I think we need to note that the lurker, reader, non-active participant might be getting exactly what they need professional development-wise. We might not need to unlock anything but allow them to learn that way and if there is an accountability piece at the end of a course/offering that is something that will allow the instructor to see if the quiet participant has made gains. At times it is okay to learn without being actively involved, sometimes the active involvement is so that other benefit and if I am a lurker and quietly benefiting and growing, what is wrong with that? And is it the facilitator's job to motivate me to interact, react, respond, if my needs are being met without me doing that? Just curious.

Crystal

Subject: [ProfessionalDevelopment 1177] Re: Leap to Online Facilitation (was Participation, Engagement, and Completion)
From: Leecy Wise leecy at fone.net
Date: Thu May 17 22:16:26 EDT 2007

Hmmm, Crystal, If I had a choice, I would always be a lurker (even knowing the benefits of dialog). However, the benefit of online or blended instruction comes from dialog. That's the nature of the beast. I always tell students that they will take out what they put in. Lurking is what we do with textbooks, movies, and clips. Dialoguing and interacting is what we do online both as "teachers" and as students. And, yes, for sure, it is the facilitator's job to nudge lurkers and to remind them that they are there to help others as well as themselves. Give a little, give a lot, but give. No one passes a course of mine without major participation. Leecy

Subject: [ProfessionalDevelopment 1178] Re: Leap to Online Facilitation (was Participation, Engagement, and Completion)
From: Crystal Hack chack at cait.org
Date: Thu May 17 22:28:06 EDT 2007

Leecy,

I completely understand your points. I am generally a lurker, but when required I will participate. I think I was referring more to listservs than courses, but I tend to lurk a lot either place. Course requirements are a different story...if it is part of my grade, I am all over participation. Again, the expectation, mandate, requirement, accountability piece I mentioned in an earlier list message prompts participation or one faces the consequences.

I absolutely understand and appreciate your perspective.

-) Crystal

Subject: [ProfessionalDevelopment 1179] Re: Leap to Online Facilitation (was Participation, Engagement, and Completion)
From: janeaddeo at comcast.net janeaddeo at comcast.net
Date: Thu May 17 22:46:49 EDT 2007

Crystal and others:

I confess- I too am a lurker in a listservs environment. Nevertheless, I do benefit professionally from the experience :>) However, in a course situation, one is expected to participate.

Jane

Subject: [ProfessionalDevelopment 1181] Re: Leap to Online Facilitation (wasParticipation, Engagement, and Completion)
From: James, Kathryn kathryn.james at lancaster.ac.uk
Date: Fri May 18 04:48:02 EDT 2007

Dear all,

The question of lurking is an interesting one I think. We all noted how online learning and teaching is different to that of f2f and lurking is also different I think. In a f2f class people don't always participate but they do sometimes nod and smile, when one is online it is not possible to see this and therefore as a tutor how do you know the student has understood a point, maybe has a different point maybe does has not really had time to absorb? But at the end of the day when in a f2f class the student has fulfilled the attendance requirement, if they are online does this mean there is no attendance requirement (maybe this is not necessary?) We have discussed this at length as a course team and one of the questions posed by one of the tutors is that if students do not actively participate how does the tutor know the person submitting the assignment is the person who has been online? They have not participated, the tutor has no 'feeling' for the student...... The result of our many discussions is we make an element of the discussion mandatory...... students must be active to a specified amount. Also my feeling is if everyone lurks there would be no discussion. Many students do say that once they have started it is fine to keep going, so it comes down to setting the student up at the start and making expectations clear at the start and support throughout. But that is of course not to say that lurking is not beneficial at all, we all do it on occasion, the question is then perhaps what is acceptable and what is not?

....

Kathryn

Subject: [ProfessionalDevelopment 1182] Re: Leap to Online Facilitation (was Participation, Engagement, and Completion)
From: Marie Cora marie.cora at hotspurpartners.com
Date: Fri May 18 07:21:38 EDT 2007

Wow! I'm surprised to hear you both say this about lurking, given your involvement in this stuff. I lament that I mostly have to lurk, given that I am on about 15 Discussion Lists. If I could possibly 'talk' on them all, that would make me really satisfied and happy. Myself, I would definitely prefer not to lurk - but at the same time I most definitely concur with the comments regarding the worth or lurking.

Others? To lurk or not to lurk?
Marie Cora

Subject: [ProfessionalDevelopment 1189] Re: Leap to Online Facilitation (was Participation, Engagement, and C
From: Steve Quann steve_quann at worlded.org
Date: Fri May 18 11:44:16 EDT 2007

Hi Marie,
I will answer your question about what we get out of the discussions when we do not actively participate.

To me these listserves are like being in a classroom listening to a great exchange of experience and knowledge. Especially this one! Full of terrific tips. I find I learn more here than in most online courses I have taken. I guiltily thank all the active participants because I feel like I am taking but not giving as much as I would like. But honestly, I don’t have time to read all the posts never mind respond.

Contrary to what one would think from a previous post, I prefer F2F. I find writing takes a lot of effort and by the time I find a break in my work and get my ideas together, the conversation has moved in another direction. I am also a slow typist*. so chats? Forget about them.

I think listserves are like a classroom where there are folks who get involved in the, sometimes rapid, interplay of ideas and others learn and participate by listening. Here the same applies. There are many who don’t active participate but benefit from “hearing” from others. Now what I am still wondering* would it be the same if you put the all 800 from the listserve in a classroom/auditorium. I assume many of the same people would be participating in a discussion. But would some be more likely to participate in a listserve with 800. I think so. I think those who like to/need to compose their ideas might tend to and so we and we are getting added value from this method.

Now when it is a online course, whether giving it or taking one, I think one has a greater responsibility to actively participate.

Steve Quann
World Education
44 Farnsworth Street
Boston, MA
617.482.9485

Subject: [ProfessionalDevelopment 1190] Re: Leap to Online Facilitation (was Participation, Engagement, and C
From: Jane MacDonald capemacca at yahoo.ca
Date: Fri May 18 11:52:02 EDT 2007

And if you sit back and wait quietly some one will say exactly what you believe.

Thanks for that Steve.

Subject: [ProfessionalDevelopment 1191] Re: Leap to Online Facilitation (was Participation, Engagement, and Completion)
From: Leecy Wise leecy at fone.net
Date: Fri May 18 12:33:12 EDT 2007

Right on, Crystal. I lurk on several lists just for my own enlightenment. On some, people don't ever know I'm there at all. Yes, I was definitely talking about a course or PD workshop type of environment where outcomes are expected. L ;-)

Subject: [ProfessionalDevelopment 1192] Re: Leap to Online Facilitation (was Participation, Engagement, and Completion)
From: Leecy Wise leecy at fone.net
Date: Fri May 18 12:49:49 EDT 2007

Marie, Perhaps not if to lurk but when to lurk is the question. Let's hear if for the lurker surfer who falls into the surf to taste its salt on occasion! ;-) Leecy

Subject: [ProfessionalDevelopment 1194] Re: Leap to Online Facilitation (wasParticipation, Engagement, and Completion)
From: Katherine G Kgotthardt at comcast.net
Date: Fri May 18 13:07:29 EDT 2007

Personally, being somewhat of a kinesthetic learner and someone who processes through writing, I need to respond in order to get something out of the discussion. Lurking can serve a purpose, but when it comes to really understanding and processing, I need to write. But that is me, and I know it gets on some people's nerves! LOL
Katherine

Subject: [ProfessionalDevelopment 1196] Re: Leap to Online Facilitation (was Participation, Engagement, and Completion)
From: Marie Cora marie.cora at hotspurpartners.com
Date: Fri May 18 13:15:45 EDT 2007

Hi Leecy - yes! Thanks for this - I do like 'when' better. Just this morning I was describing to a colleague how often I find myself launching into a post for one of the many interesting discussions, only to stop myself within 2 minutes saying "Gosh, I really don't have time for this, it's not what I'm supposed to be spending time on right now."

marie

Subject: [ProfessionalDevelopment 1197] Love to Lurk
From: Dlhargrove at aol.com Dlhargrove at aol.com
Date: Fri May 18 13:16:13 EDT 2007

Thanks to Steve and Marie for sharing, what I believe is, a common feeling among listserv subscribers. We love the lists, however some of us just don't have time to respond all the time. And we don't mean that our work is so much busier than others who post... we just have different responsibilities. Lurking for me is my way of staying informed.

I wonder too, if my work environment could be the reason I love to be part of these lists... I work out of my home, travel on occasion, but communicate with colleagues and clients mainly through phone or email. I don't work in an educational setting, where I'm around people all day long. I need to know that I'm still in the loop, even if I don't see or talk to anyone for a day or so. Wonder if home-school students feel this way...

That being said...I'd like to think that the reason these NIFL lists are so popular is because it allows many of us to sit on the side, quietly taking listening, quietly learning from others.

Debra

Debra L. Hargrove, Ed.D.
Coordinator
Florida TechNet
www.floridatechnet.org

Subject: [ProfessionalDevelopment 1198] Re: Leap to Online Facilitation (wasParticipation, Engagement, and C
From: Marie Cora marie.cora at hotspurpartners.com
Date: Fri May 18 13:34:00 EDT 2007

Hi Steve, thank you so much for this!! It's just the thing I'm craving to listen to!

A couple of your points are familiar to me, either for myself (I'm good at typing, but it's very time-consuming for me to compose/write), or others (one of my on-line students just was a terrible typist and could never have kept up with the chat).

But a couple of your experiences are so interesting: that you feel a certain amount of guilt by learning thru more active participants - and by the way, I'm going to change referring to lurkers as "not active" - that's like saying that reading is not an active task. I actually don't think of them (you all!) as "not active" but suddenly during this discussion, that is how I am describing lurkers.

I also think your comment that you feel you learn more in this venue than in say, a structured course is interesting. Can you say why?

On your last point: as a moderator and a participant on Lists, I could never imagine conversing with 800 people at once, this venue is not meant for that to happen in the first place. You're right: this would be the same for that introduction to astronomy class for frosh with 800 young people in the lecture hall. Whether or not participation on the List or in class draws out different or more people is also a really interesting question to me.

In that lecture hall however, you still get to see some level of 'performance' or feedback from the students in the form of quizzes and tests - not the greatest gauge, but more than you can receive back from Discussion List subscribers who lurk.

I still wish the "10%" rule (percentage of subscribers who post) was more like "25%"! :-)

Marie Cora

Subject: [ProfessionalDevelopment 1200] Lurker - hate the name, love the opportunities to learn
From: Barbara Caballero barbaracaballero at sbcglobal.net
Date: Fri May 18 14:49:43 EDT 2007

Hi. My name is Barbara and I'm a lurker. I've been a volunteer ESL and literacy tutor for about 14 years, was a center director and tutor trainer. I was hired as a part-time evenings ESL instructor six years ago, but I kept my day job until recently. I am now a part-time ESL instructor (working without a net).

I found out about the nifl listservs last summer and can't quit. I learn a lot. The information is so valuable.

I lurk because, just like my students in class, sometimes I have thoughts and ideas, just not enough confidence yet to say a whole lot. But we are truly grateful for the chance to read and learn.

A side note: In my day-job life I did most of my work on computers using the internet, email and mass quantities of software. I have no fear of long distance PD. Bring it on! Just give me decent hardware and a fast connection.

Thank you,
Barbara Rotolo-Caballero
Austin, Texas

Subject: [ProfessionalDevelopment 1201] accountability for lurkers
From: Holly Dilatush-Guthrie Holly.Dilatush-Guthrie at ccs.k12.va.us
Date: Fri May 18 14:53:32 EDT 2007

I ditto others' comments about the "exhiliration" and richness of this dialogue -- any lurkers reading through are likely as exhilirated as I am. Thank you to all!

Crystal's comment, below, and earlier (along with others' comments, too) -- have touched upon the differences between listserv lurking and class lurking -- whether listserv participation (or lurking) could be considered valid PD. IMHO (in my humble opinion) listservs are a vital component of my personal PD. That being said, I still feel a twinge of "this isn't what I'm supposed to be doing" when I read/lurk/reply during my paid hours. For years, I saved all listserv messages and read them only from my home computer.

Then I was lucky enough to obtain a full time position, and it became more difficult to find that time. I was not willing to give up listservs (as so many colleagues I talk to tell me is how they deal with it -- they unsubscribe or delete without reading), and so I began reading them during work.

I've always frequently forwarded/shared particularly pertinent/immediately relevant posts with others, always including the listserv info.

One benefit to a CMS (course management system) approach would be the ability to have documentation on the 'lurkers.' Moodle has excellent data tracking reports, which can show the date, number and length of time each individual clicks on any link within the Moodle course.

As an instructor, this information brings many a satisfied "hmmmm" when I discover that a student whom I didn't think was benefiting much from our course interactive (Moodle) website had actually logged in over 1000 times, spent considerable time "lurking" in various areas. It might still be a challenge to get that student to post a message -- but surely that data speaks to something! This is an area I am greatly interested in... how/why/need I convert the lurkers into more online action? These questions (I believe) are equally applicaple to colleagues in PD situations online.

Crystal wrote: "I think we need to note that the lurker, reader, non-active participant might be getting exactly what they need professional development-wise. We might not need to unlock anything but allow them to learn that way and if there is an accountability piece at the end of a course/offering that is something that will allow the instructor to see if the quiet participant has made gains. At times it is okay to learn without being actively involved, sometimes the active involvement is so that other benefit and if I am a lurker and quietly benefiting and growing, what is wrong with that?"

and Crystal also wrote: "And is it the facilitator's job to motivate me to interact, react, respond, if my needs are being met without me doing that? Just curious."
Now, there is a question!
I see there have been several more responses since I began this reply (multiple interruptions here!), so I'll end for now. Again, THANKS to all for this valuable, for-sure-to-be-reviewed and pondered again opportunity!
Holly

"No matter what our attempts to inform, it is our ability to inspire that will turn the tides."
Holly Dilatush
ESL distance learning, Dialogue Cafe, Volunteer coordinator
Charlottesville City Schools Adult Learning Center
1000 Preston Ave., Suite D
Charlottesville VA 22903
(434) 245.2815 office
(434) 960.7177 cell/mobile
http://theHsmile.org ['home' to several Moodle CMS (course management systems/virtual classrooms)]
http://www.Charlottesville-ESL.org
"Live with intention. Share inside~out smiles, inspire hope, seek awe and nurture in nature."

Subject: [ProfessionalDevelopment 1202] Re: number of discussion posts to wade through
From: Holly Dilatush-Guthrie Holly.Dilatush-Guthrie at ccs.k12.va.us
Date: Fri May 18 15:12:40 EDT 2007

Hello Steve, all,
Steve wrote,
<<...one of the biggest complaints I hear about taking online courses is the amount of discussion posts that people have to wade through. >>

I find myself smiling at that -- and have certainly heard it before myself -- and yet, I love reading all the posts.

Even within a CMS when the posts are generally categorized more clearly than on a listserv (on listservs it's easier to forget to change the subject line), when I could choose to "skip" the social topic section, the intro section, the other group's project session -- I find myself compelled to read them all! Those that are meaningless to me are easy to delete/move on from, and this really doesn't take much time, unless the person posting is rambling (something I am too often guilty of) -- then valued time can be frustratingly lost as one reads and rereads to attempt to make sense of the message. And all those posts serve to make the virtual environment feel more "live."

In public school, I was a shyer student, rarely raising my hand, fearing social peer retribution more than the teacher -- and yet often wishing I could share my thoughts, often writing in journals and/or papers.

Somehow, this (online) feels so much safer. I have made mistakes, have been gently and not-so-gently reprimanded/chided when I've overstepped the intentions/instructions of online groups -- but these experiences have enhanced my learning (mistakes teach us well, eh?) and I hope have made me a better online instructor.

Holly

Subject: [ProfessionalDevelopment 1204] Re: Leap to Online Facilitation (was Participation, Engagement, and Completion)
From: Leecy Wise leecy at fone.net
Date: Fri May 18 15:32:16 EDT 2007

I hear you, Marie. ;-) Going beck to active/passive participation in courses, I occasionally have a teacher who has an emergency that keeps him or her from participating in the week's discussion. Since I close forums when a new comes up, that person has no chance to reply to others or dialog with them. No catch up in other words. I often allow such a person to read all of the posts for the week and reflectively summarize the main points made during the discussion. I always get some very perceptive summaries from this "allowance," but I only allow the choice once in the course. It's not the same as dialog, but it is a learning experience nevertheless. Leecy

At 09:39 AM 5/18/2007, you wrote:

"Hi Leecy – yes! Thanks for this – I do like ‘when’ better. Just this morning I was describing to a colleague how often I find myself launching into a post for one of the many interesting discussions, only to stop myself within 2 minutes saying “Gosh, I really don’t have time for this, it’s not what I’m supposed to be spending time on right now.”

Subject: [ProfessionalDevelopment 1206] Re: interesting informal poll
From: Holly Dilatush-Guthrie Holly.Dilatush-Guthrie at ccs.k12.va.us
Date: Fri May 18 17:43:38 EDT 2007

Hello all,
I happened to attend an ESOL staff meeting this afternoon -- monthly meeting -- with only 10 of our 17 ESOL teachers present.

I asked for a show of hands to these three questions:

1) How many of you subscribe to at least one adult ed/ESL related listserv?

2) How many of you USUALLY read most of the message posts?

3) IF an online alternative were offered in lieu of a four hour or full day PD, MIGHT you be interested/intrigued with online participation as an option?

Answers were:

first question: 9
second question: 2 (and two others who "sometimes" read them)
third question: 2

Brief conversations about it afterwards, but my time was allotted at the end of our meeting and it's Friday and folks were impatient to leave --

but many responses/comments were related to part-time difficulties (not paid enough to make time for reading them all; I have three jobs and usually don't have time to be at the computer; when I have extra time I do not want to spend it reading a computer screen; and these comments: I usually delete the messages without reading them; I LOVE the f2f, virtual just isn't the same)

and most (third question) were just too unfamiliar with the possibilities, what it would entail, would it require extra/more work than f2f PD, how it could engage them, etc.

I (of course) expressed my personal PD experiences, extolled the incredible richness and engagement possible, the options, the benefits of using this with colleagues first and gaining the expertise to use/share it with students -- but by that point half the group was on their way out the door (it's Friday after all).

and with that, out the door I will go, too!
Thanks again, everyone,
Holly

Subject: [ProfessionalDevelopment 1207] Re: [PD 1174] About Participation in listserv discussions
From: Miller, Jane Miller_J at cde.state.co.us
Date: Fri May 18 17:50:30 EDT 2007

Marie, Jackie, and everyone

I've been a subscriber to 3-4 nifl lists for 3 years now and generally have been a "lurker". When this discussion topic of on-line PD came up I decided I would read all the postings as they came in so I wouldn't get behind, and would participate at least a few times. When the topic on lurkers came up yesterday in Marie C's post, I took my second opportunity to post. Here are some thoughts:

1) I think the term "lurker" is offensive. That word, in all contexts,has negative connotations. The result of using that term in on-line PD is to make non-posting participants feel guilty. As a trainer, in a f2f training, I would never intentionally do anything with the purpose of making the participants feel guilty. Marie suggested the term "non-active" but I'll use the term "non-posting". Although I rarely post, I feel that I am very active when keeping up with the lists.

2) Participating as a non-poster in the nifl lists these past 3 years has been tremendously beneficial to my own PD. I have expanded my knowledge about adult ed exponentially. I feel connected nationwide to other adult educators and to leaders in the field. I feel up to date in adult ed trends, research, legislation and hot topics in the field of

adult ed.

3) I click on almost every web link included in nifl posts. In this way, I learn about, access, and use the latest in research, think tank reports, legislative updates, state adult ed websites, classroom resources for teachers, PD resources, news articles, etc. Countless times, the resources I have linked to through the nifl posts wind their way into the trainings we design and deliver to adult educators throughout Colorado. Thus, our 400+ teachers state-wide benefit also from my participation in the nifl lists.

4) I think many non-posters are such because of the difficulties in keeping up with postings. From the time I left work yesterday until this afternoon - when I returned to the office from an all-morning meeting - 30 new posts had arrived - just from the NIFL PD list. I had an additional 48 new emails from other lists and from individuals contacting me about my "real work".

5) My "real work" has suffered this week as a result of my spending so much time each day reading the PD discussion list. In reading just the nifl PD posts and in composing this posting I have spent an hour. I won't be able to keep this up. I have got to get back to the work I am paid to do. But next week, the nifl FOB list is going to have a dynamite discussion on content standards. I'd like to try to keep up with that every day, but can I?

6) I now work for the state. When I am in the office and not out training teachers, I sit in front of a computer all day. When listserv postings come in, I am right there to get them. However, I have learned that MANY teachers access email only a few times a month. For those teachers, they would be unable to jump in and post responses to a list discussion because by the time they access their email, they might have hundreds of posts and the discussions would have come and gone. So, they may be active by reading, but not by posting.

So, the list discussions are very valuable, both to those who post and those who don't post. Each subscriber has to find the way - and the time- that is feasible for her to participate.

Many thanks for the time that each of you has now spent reading my lengthy posting!

Jane Miller
Colo. Dept of Education
PD Coordinator

Subject: [ProfessionalDevelopment 1208] Reflections on Community
From: Taylor, Jackie jataylor at utk.edu
Date: Fri May 18 18:12:03 EDT 2007

PD List Colleagues:

This is a safe space to read and also to voice your thoughts and ideas. You should feel no guilt for joining us here - in whatever ways you define your participation. And ideas do not need to be fully formed before we "put them out there." I've often heard folks say that they are afraid to post, as if ideas automatically come fully-formed in our heads, complete with blueprints.

Words gain their meaning in their use; we shape, form, and re-form the ideas, together. In sharing ideas, we learn collaboratively, more than what can be accomplished alone. We build our relationships. They give our online community meaning -- you _give_ our community meaning.

While sometimes the discussions move fast, we can ALWAYS pick threads back up. They don't leave us; they become a rich part of the fabric and I need you to help weave them. I cannot do it alone.

Online learning is professional development. If you are looking for PD on this topic this weekend, here are some options..

You are invited to:

1) Revisit the archives this weekend. Find interesting posts. Reflect, reply:

http://www.nifl.gov/pipermail/professionaldevelopment/2007/date.html

2) Join us for a culminating synchronous event with the TESOL EVO Team on Sunday (5/20):

A. Online Calendar: http://tinyurl.com/ysob9j

B. Directions to sign up for the AALPD Group at Tapped In:

http://tinyurl.com/ytz38y

3) Visit the "Going the Distance" Wiki. Add print resources, favorite quotes on dialogue & community, tools for blending, and more:

http://wiki.literacytent.org/index.php/Going_the_Distance

And as always, please let me know what you learn.

All the best,

~~ Jackie Taylor, List Moderator, jataylor at utk.edu

Subject: [ProfessionalDevelopment 1212] Re: Reflections on Community
From: Thomas Nash tnash at windham.k12.me.us
Date: Fri May 18 21:29:39 EDT 2007

Very well stated Jackie.It's like having a genuine, lively, informal discussion amongst coleagues and friends. A vibrant community of leaners, much like our classrooms...

Tom Nash
Windham Adult Education Director
Windham, Maine

Subject: [ProfessionalDevelopment 1209] Re: interesting informal poll
From: Katherine G Kgotthardt at comcast.net
Date: Fri May 18 19:30:49 EDT 2007

Holly, this is my first list serve, and I am THRILLED to be here! Yes, I have read all the posts and look forward to the digests rolling in. For a long time, I have worked from home as a DL instructor (mostly using WebCT, but also using Moodle, Project Connect, and a couple of hybrids), but I have not felt connected to other DL instructors. This list is WONDERFUL, and I am so pleased to be reading everyone's ideas and thoughts on the topic! And since I have the habit of constantly checking email anyway, this really works for me.

I wonder if there are others in my circumstance who just didn't know this existed and who could benefit?

Katherine Mercurio Gotthardt

Subject: [ProfessionalDevelopment 1210] Re: Love to Lurk
From: Bonnie Odiorne bonniesophia at sbcglobal.net
Date: Fri May 18 19:55:03 EDT 2007

I'm really intrigued by this discussion about lurkers--I, too, dislike the term, sounding so very sinister, rather than dextrously jumping into the fray. I had a colleague once who talked about cat people and dog people: cats come in carefully, sniffing around, one paw at a time; dogs, au contraire, come bounding in leaping and barking. I've been known to do both. But it took me a while to perceive that in my f2f classes, that "silence" didn't necessarily mean noninvolvement, just lack of involvement in the particular mode of verbal discussion; sometimes it did indicate lack of interest, motivation, sometimes outright hostility, but other times it was more like that "listening" stage of ESOL learners who just spend a lot of time absorbing rather than speaking.
A lurker in an online course is more serious, and invariably led to lack of success in the course; if a student couldn't keep up with the structure of weekly assignmments and discussion posts he/she had a good chance of being overwhelmed very fast: I always gave them a tentative "plan" or "schedule" of how to organize their classwork.
I don't always post here because my current position isn't always pertinent to the current professional concerns in ABE/ESOL, but there's enough overlap with developmental education that I do learn a lot. I do tend to archive posts a lot and not always have the time to go to the links while at work, so I have an enormous backlog that I may never get through--story of my life! but since I have computer access and an office (my in-between status of part-time staff of an important academic support service--writing center--and part-time--sometimes full-time--adjunct has its advantages), I never felt qualms about reading professional list serves at work, since I do consider these as perfectly valid PD, and said so once at an interview, much to the apparent consternation of the Dean. This space is ambiguous and morphing, rather than a structured course: like a quick google to see what's out there, or a glance at wikipedia, rather than systematic research but crucial nevertheless to see what the large and small issues are. (No I haven't yet been to the ALE wiki, much to my chagrin)
Thanks all for all you do and say, and all your very hard work!
Bonnie Odiorne, Ph.D.
Director, Writing Center, Adjunct professor. Post University, Waterbury CT

Subject: [ProfessionalDevelopment 1211] Re: [PD 1174] About Participation inlistserv discussions
From: Taylor, Jackie jataylor at utk.edu
Date: Fri May 18 19:58:36 EDT 2007

Hello Jane,

Thank you for your thoughtful message. I have imbedded my responses in the useful format you laid out below...

________________________________

From: professionaldevelopment-bounces at nifl.gov
at nifl.gov On Behalf Of Miller, Jane
Sent: Friday, May 18, 2007 5:51 PM
To: The Adult Literacy Professional Development Discussion List
Subject: [ProfessionalDevelopment 1207] Re: [PD 1174] About Participation inlistserv discussions

Marie, Jackie, and everyone

1) I think the term "lurker" is offensive. That word, in all contexts, has negative connotations. The result of using that term in on-line PD is to make non-posting participants feel guilty. As a trainer, in a f2f training, I would never intentionally do anything with the purpose of making the participants feel guilty. Marie suggested the term "non-active" but I'll use the term "non-posting". Although I rarely post, I feel that I am very active when keeping up with the lists.

-- I agree entirely. I always try to avoid using the term. Unfortunately, much of the research that I've seen in online interactions uses the term to describe those who do not post. I would like to find a better term. Do others on this list know of research that describes non-posting in a more accurate manner? I consider being part of a list as a continuum of participation, from reading to regularly posting. I agree that it connotes guilt. I like to think of active reading of posts as a relational way of interacting with the list that does not carry the guilt of not posting.

The reason why I encourage posting is because I see the lists as a way to share professional wisdom and to construct new knowledge. My worst fear is for an online community to die because it becomes devoid of interaction and dialogue on the list.

We could collect research relevant to us regarding online learning, and post it in the ALE Wiki.

-- That's fabulous! I share in your experience.

-- Same here in Tennessee. I also encourage teacher leaders to participate as members of the field by following dialogues and interacting on the lists (Hi Micki, Lisa, Carol, and all!!)

-- Certainly lots of positive energy, interests, and concerns around the topic!

-- Do you receive your postings in "digest format?" This bundles your list subscription emails into one or two emails/day. Anyone should feel free to contact me off-list if they want their emails "bundled." I'm here to help. (jataylor at utk.edu)

So, the list discussions are very valuable, both to those who post and those who don't post. Each subscriber has to find the way - and the time- that is feasible for her to participate.

-- I agree. I would like to see NIFL create a practical resource guide and offer PD about how to customize one's list subscription, and provide a variety of resources for using the lists as professional development. If you like that idea, you might suggest it to NIFL. Some states may be providing teachers dedicated time to use NIFL lists as professional development. If your state does this (anyone's), please email me; I would like to hear about it.

Many thanks for the time that each of you has now spent reading my lengthy posting!

-- Thank YOU, for following my responses, and the week's discussion. I remember when you contributed (on Wednesday). I always find it helpful to learn of your perspective on things.

Have a great weekend, Jackie Taylor, jataylor at utk.edu

Jane Miller
Colo. Dept of Education
PD Coordinator

Subject: [ProfessionalDevelopment 1213] Re: [PD 1174] About Participation inlistserv discussions
From: lainemarsh at optonline.net lainemarsh at optonline.net
Date: Fri May 18 22:15:57 EDT 2007

Well, as the weekend is finally here, and I can breathe - having turned in grades, marched in commencement, etc., I would like to put in a bit of reflection for Jackie - as for what we take away from the week. Actually, in my methods courses, we do a final in-class exercise called "What Sticks" (could easily be online) in which I ask each student to pick something they especially recall from the course that will stay with them. They are amazed to hear each other's comments and learn from that final moment of thought.
So, I have "lurked" this week, although I had fully intended to post and post and post. Why? I think we get an idea online of audience, topic and purpose. We then decide who we are in relation to these and find our "proper" place. Although in my own local community, I am the AALPD consultant and the one who "knows", etc. , I quickly found that in this illustrious group, I am a learner. I became content to read and absorb. Sure, much of what was posted I could have also posted, but then, if someone else did it, then I did not need to. If my voice was represented, that was sufficient. Does this perspective make sense to anyone?
Helaine (online = Laine)
Long Island University
and Consultant, Literacy Volunteers

Subject: [ProfessionalDevelopment 1215] Re: Viewers, Non-posters PD Digest, Vol 20, Issue 58
From: selover200 at comcast.net selover200 at comcast.net
Date: Sat May 19 02:15:30 EDT 2007

As a non-posting viewer, I find it hard to keep up with reading the quantity of emails, and I rarely have time to respond.

Before we had listserves that bounce messages back to everyone on the list, there were some types of discussions that were scrolling lists of input by members of the group. One did not have to open each message separately, so it was much easier to read through a days worth of messages.

I don't recall exactly how it worked, but I think that you had to access a site where the messages were posted, and you could read it as a continuous discussion, and post comments. It was easier to read and it took less time, since you did not have to open and close messages to read them.

Sometimes the messages that bounce back carry the previous messages and you can start at the bottom and read up to the most recent message, and sometimes they don't.

Sometimes people send a brief message to the last writer, like thanks, good idea, etc, and it gets sent to the whole group. It is nice to receive feedback, even if it is just a short comment, but it certainly adds to the quantity of emails.

I am one of those people who does not have a chance to read email during the day, and I also don't like to delete all of them without reading them, but I just don't have time to keep up. I have cut my lists down to 3, but I still have a huge backlog.

So, lurking is a bit negative, and I think of it more as following or viewing the discussion. If someone else voices an opinion that I agree with, then I don't feel the need to say "Me too".

I do enjoy reading and following the discussions when I have the time.
Thank you,
Linda Selover

Subject: [ProfessionalDevelopment 1216] Re: [PD 1174] About Participationinlistserv discussions
From: Katherine G Kgotthardt at comcast.net
Date: Sat May 19 08:11:56 EDT 2007

"If my voice was represented, that was sufficient."

Helaine, that makes perfect sense to me. If someone already says it for me, I don't need to say it AGAIN (unless somehow I missed it the first time).

For me, being a list serve newbie and being on this particular list, I was awed by the amount of collective insight and knowledge, often thinking I should not even post because even though posting helps me integrate, perhaps I could not add much to the discussion. I am overwhelmed by the resources out there for online instructors and will have to take more time to visit some of the links. I really appreciate the opportunity to have participated in this discussion, and I did sign up for others.

Best Wishes in Learning,

Katherine Mercurio Gotthardt

ESOL Distance Education Instructor
Prince William County Public Schools
Adult Education
P.O. Box 389
Manassas, VA 20108
703-791-8387
http://www.pwcs.edu/curriculum/adulted/

Subject: [ProfessionalDevelopment 1226] Lurking and Learning - podcast with Stephen Downes
From: Marian Thacher mthacher at otan.us
Date: Mon May 21 13:37:09 EDT 2007

Holly and All,

I got behind on the emails! But I love this whole discussion of lurking (or is it not actively participating?) Coincidentally, I listened to a wonderful podcast last night by Women of Web, at http://www.edtechtalk.com/. Scroll down to Women of Web 2.0 Show #27.

They had a conversation with Stephen Downes [1] about a similar issue. His theory is that we should be supporting people (in their case kids, but you can translate) to learn whatever they want to learn however they want to learn it. One thing that struck me was his personal experience. He said that teachers tend to be on the extroverted side, and we want people to be like us, so everything is about group work and cooperative learning. He is very much an introvert, or was as a student, and hated all the group work, and didn't learn well because he was so busy trying to attend to and figure out the group dynamics. The point was that we want to accommodate all learning styles, not shoehorn people into one.

It's worth a listen, and there is lots of other good stuff on that site too.

Marian

Subject: [ProfessionalDevelopment 1237] Re: Lurker - hate the name, love the opportunities to learn
From: Crystal Hack chack at cait.org
Date: Tue May 22 11:30:05 EDT 2007

Hi Barbara and others,

Embrace lurking and being a lurker. And what is in a name anyway. :-)

Much like you, I feel like I have such simple thoughts compared to the complex and data driven things I read on this list and other lists I have subscribed to in the past. I think much can be learned for those leaders in the field that have the data-type info and study-type info to share with us. But there is A LOT that can be learned from the practical ideas and teaching experience stories that come from practioners like yourself. Don't hesitate to share and ask questions, even if you feel like you might not seem as "in the know" as others, what better way to learn, about things you are uncertain about in areas you are uncertain, of than here...this is a very non-threatening forum. And so-what if you feel like your questions might be silly or your comments might not be as well thought out as the experts...in this listserv format who really knows who you are anyway. That is the beauty of it. :-)

Have a great day.

Crystal

Subject: [ProfessionalDevelopment 1239] abolish the term "lurker"
From: Holly Dilatush-Guthrie Holly.Dilatush-Guthrie at ccs.k12.va.us
Date: Tue May 22 11:36:20 EDT 2007

Hello all
I've spent intermittent considerable time trying to coin a new expression/term for lurkers --
how about an acronym -- UPO (Unseen Participants, Overwhelmed?)

UPOs makes me smile

lurker does not

thoughts? other ideas? [Leecy's "perched" made me smile, too -- but somehow poised/perched connotes non-involvement (not "flying" away with the insights gleaned) -- and as others have indicated, unseen does not necessarily mean not participating...]

and I'll likely be UPO for the remainder of this week!
Holly

Subject: [ProfessionalDevelopment 1245] Re: abolish the term "lurker"
From: Katrina Hinson khinson at almanid.com
Date: Tue May 22 12:30:57 EDT 2007

I love it.

I definitely "lurk" more lately than before and overwhelmed is part of the reason - between full time work and full time grad school - but I find time to read and glean as much information as I can and I share it with other people I work with as well.

Regards
Katrina Hinson

Subject: [ProfessionalDevelopment 1244] Re: abolish the term "lurker"
From: Leecy Wise leecy at fone.net
Date: Tue May 22 12:35:37 EDT 2007

Heh, heh. How about VPs for Virtual Participants? Can also be used as a verb as in, "I'm VPing for a couple of days?" ;-)

Subject: [ProfessionalDevelopment 1253] Re: Abolish the term "lurker"
From: Dr Elizabeth Hanson-Smith ehansonsmi at yahoo.com
Date: Tue May 22 20:45:35 EDT 2007

I believe Etienne Wenger, the guru of online communities of practice <http://www.ewenger.com/> calls lurking "legitimate peripheral participation."

Thank goodness we are legit!

I've really enjoyed the chatting and online interaction and wish I could participate longer, but other projects are calling. Hope to see some of you at the Electronic Village Online next Jan-Feb. I'll be sure that Jackie passes on the invitation to you.

Cheers--
--Elizabeth Hanson-Smith
http://www.geocities.com/ehansonsmi

Subject: [ProfessionalDevelopment 1258] Re: 5-minute Feedback
From: Jerome Johnston jerej at umich.edu
Date: Wed May 23 09:39:39 EDT 2007

I like substituting the term "listener" (watcher?) for "lurker" as suggested by Barbara. It's a descriptive term with no inherent value judgment.

At 10:58 PM -0500 5/22/07, Barbara Sabaj wrote:

>From a "Lurker"

[edit]

=========================================

J E R O M E J O H N S T O N
Director, Project IDEAL Support Center
Institute for Social Research - University of Michigan
734/763-3079 (734) 615-6638 (fax) jerej at umich.edu

[edit]

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Subject: [ProfessionalDevelopment 1260] "Lurker" Discussion
From: jeffrey A fantine fantine at ohio.edu
Date: Wed May 23 11:36:51 EDT 2007

PD list:

I guess I'm a bit irritated by this "lurker" discussion. Why not just call all who've signed on to this list - "a participant" - yes, some more active than others. Just like with any group - you will have those that dominate or over-contribute, those that contribute appropriately, and those that watch the discussion and maybe don't contribute (and all the descriptors in-between) - and just like with any group, all these roles are important and valid. Most of us are in education, so we should know that people learn differently AND participate differently - and that is OK! And maybe these comments have been made by someone already as I find it difficult to keep up with all the contributions that are made to this list, but I'm a believer in review and reinforcement, so I'll post these comments anyway.

Yours truly,
the lurker, listener, sometimes-contributor, voyeur, sinner...

Jeffrey A. Fantine
Director, Literacy Center
College of Education
Ohio University
340 McCracken Hall
Athens, OH 45701
800-753-1519
Fax: 740-593-2834
www.ohio.edu/literacy

“You must be the change you want to see in the world.” - Mahatma Gandhi

Subject: [ProfessionalDevelopment 1266] Re: abolish the term "lurker"
From: missy slaathaug missythird at gmail.com
Date: Tue May 29 15:20:07 EDT 2007

Greetings all,

I lurk and perch and UPO as well - and I occasionally post. What I do that you don't see, is to forward emails and websites that I think will be of particular interest to the South Dakota adult ed ESL teachers on the small listserv that I manage. I bet a lot of us do that, in one way or another. So rest assured, the information that gets churned up and disseminated in these big mammoth listservs goes out even further than you might think. I have mostly lurkers on my SD listserv, but every now and then someone comments on what a timely or interesting or useful tidbit I sent their way.

And I apologize for being so late contributing to this discussion - that's definitely the O part of UPO.

Retrieved from "http://wiki.literacytent.org/index.php/To_Post_or_Not_to_Post%3F_Benefits/Issues_with_%22Lurking%22"

To Post or Not to Post? Benefits/Issues with "Lurking"

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